Huge Energy Bill - Has House Approval

The Smoking Man

They have to develop the fuel first and they have no incentive to do so.

Hey, you don't get it ... They don't give a rat's keester either way. All they know is they get a tax break for owning them. That is IN FACT what I have been telling you. The rebate system is flawed when there is no check for compliance or targetting of goals.

Don't worry. Big energy has had teams of lawyers and accountants running over it for you and will cut to the heart of the matter.

LOL, I just told you how the largest supplier in the NE USA tapped the 'conservation incentives' in the last bill. They didn't have to even break stride to collect on this one too.Sorry, I meant Arkansas ... Oooo and it also appears that becasue Oklahoma has the Canadian River, they get some cash too!!! Goo ooo oooly Sargeant! We kin eat in Mayberry Tonight!!!Oh, no reason ... just thought you might have seen a movie or two.

danAlwyn

Out of curiosity, why? If we could drop the real cost of solar cells by a factor of two with research investment, it might be possible to deal with the energy crisis once and for all. If I did my calculations correctly, a moderate clime gets on the order of 4 kWHrs/day/square meter. That's about 20 square meters per household for a state like California, which isn't so bad. If we can double the efficiency (which is possible) solar farms in Arizona could power Phoenix, Los Angeles, San Diego and probably Texas as well-which would be a pretty big load off conventional power sources. You would need some advances in power storage for nighttime operations, but it's certainly moving closer and closer to viable.

loseyourname

Do you mean they have to develop better cells that are commerically viable? You certainly can't mean that they have to develop hydrogen. It's the most abundant element in the universe and easy enough to extract from water.

So are you going to bother looking at the bill at all, or do you just think any rebate scheme can't work? Despite almost all of the objections you make to the actual bill being factually incorrect and based on your not having read the bill, you're just going to continue along these lines.

By the way, your point about the Ohio provider had nothing to do with the conservation incentives in this bill. Those incentives aren't even for providers. Again, read the damn bill before criticizing it.

I've seen quite a bit more than two. None where any characters ever used the phrase 'taking the piss' to mean anything other than taking a piss.

Didn't you say you were going to sleep?

The Smoking Man

No son, I just have 25 years more experience as an analyst than you and have not to mention living through the eras that you only talk about.

I have also lived and worked in 6 different countries including the USA.

Heck, by the time I had hit your age, I had sat through the whole Watergate inquest, watched vietnam rage on my TV set and saw it end.

You had better stop this naive approach of analysis of 'Bills' that come down from on high. Look for loopholes and how it will be abused from the onset.

To approach ANYTHING that comes out of the government without acknowledging the whole 'lobby system' and what they influence and hide in each bill is like sticking a sign on you that says 'Rape Me'.

Don't be even handed. You can bet they aren't.

loseyourname

Well first, probably because it would require a huge change in infrastructure. Commercial solar power right now, what little of it there is, doesn't even use photovoltaic cells. If you wanted to actually do that, you'd have to build huge arrays to power an entire grid. No public utility has the resources to do that, but individual businesses can certainly do it to their buildings. The bill does encourage research - in the form of new university grants - into making solar power more viable, which frankly is about the best we can do with it right now.

loseyourname

You're also quite the expert on ad hominem arguments, aren't you? I'm younger than you and haven't lived in as many places, therefore I must be wrong and you must be right. Was that still considered to be a valid argument form when you were in school? Meanwhile, you don't even look at the bill being discussed, but you're the expert on it because you once worked for a utility company.

What exactly do you expect from the government? I have to wonder. Is there such a thing as a bill with no loopholes? Seriously, man, read the damn bill and tell me what you would change about it. I'm sure it has plenty of real shortcomings, plenty that even a young sapling like I could find. Have you considered the alternative plans that were proposed and whether or not they were any better? Or are you simply going to complain no matter what is done? Until you at least look at the actual plan, you're making yourself look like a fool, with the appeal to age/wisdom/experience card. Come on.

The Smoking Man

Going to go all literal on me now are you? Yeah, cells of many types. One is the type you envision and another is based on a sealed battery design.

Hydrogen IS plentiful, yes. Unfortunately, it takes electricity to extract from water ... electrolysis. Power to get power. The process needs work.
Let me ask YOU since you have read it ... What is the demonstration to the government that you qualify for the rebate? What are the Checks and Balances? Basically, what happens in these schemes is that they leave it up to the TAX OFFICE to enforce the chriteria. THAT is the flaw with all of these schemes. You have a tax accountant looking over a balance sheet. LOL ... Rebates don't work. Grants that are justified with targets etc. DO. It is a simple fact.
Allow me to educate you then: http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=sl...0piss&ei=UTF-8I did ... I only sleep 4 hours a night.

TheStatutoryApe

Fossil fuels, unfortunately, are of vital importance to the way this country's economy runs. It would make no sense for this country to deny their importance and not be sure to keep the industry, that helps support so many others, prospering. It would make even less sense to smack them around like a redheaded step child because we're pissed that they are that important to us.
Aside from that...
http://www.chevron.com/technology/ne...ble_energy.asp
http://www.energyvortex.com/pages/he...ls.cfm?id=1701

Integral Fast Reactors...
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/designs/ifr/
The website for Argonne National Laboratory mentioned in previous link...
http://www.anl.gov/
France and Nuclear Power...
http://greennature.com/article744.html
China and Nuclear Power...
http://www.rednova.com/news/science/...nuclear_power/
Japan and Nuclear Power...
http://www.japannuclear.com/

The Smoking Man

Actually, yes it was a valid argument and now it wasn't considered ad hominem.

There is something to be said for respecting your elders simply becasue of what they have experienced and the conclusions they have drawn from that experience.

You tell me to read this legislation for instance becasue in your reading, you didn't find anything wrong with it.

Well, in my 'experience', I have seen a great many pieces of similar legislation and it is not the content of the bill that is in question but the TYPE of legislation.

I have specified systems for banks in three countries, insurance companies in two countries and a power company in one and they were all 'tax based' legislation with the onus on the tax office to verify and administer decisions that were not in their perview.

I can answer it simply ... 'Who in the tax office is trained as a tax accountant and an expert in alternate fuel source development?' Did that require me to read a bill?

Nope.

How did I do that?

Experience through 4 administrations of US policy does that since inevitably 'all systems now lead to the USA'. (Instead of all roads lead to Rome.)

Without exception, trickled down especially when led by a specific target this is doomed to failure.

It's the football in the nuts scenario ... been there done that already.

Skyhunter

Russ it is time to earn your super mentor status and make sure you have some knowledge on a subject before you start voicing an opinion.

Tom DeLay is a congressional representative from Texas, not a Senator. If you don't even know that most basic of information about him then you should not offer an opinion about his ethics.

Skyhunter

I apologize for not reading all the posts but I need to sleep and wanted to add a thought and ask a question before bedtime.

The current US government is willing to spend hundreds of billions a year on a war with no well defined goals.

What would happen to the price of PV panels if the government invested 100 billion a year to subsidize the production of photo-voltaics?

Reading how the actual tax incentives work is frightening, the tax incentive for hybrids laughable. It only covers the first 60,000 vehicles. Toyota will sell that many in 4 months.And the incentive for the purchaser is about $2000. I can still buy a loaded H2 and get a $60,000 write-off the first year.

The Smoking Man

I know what you're saying but I always have the nasty thought in my mind of San Andreas and Japan. Or even a conventional war.

Bomb my wind farm, shake my dam, break my solar panels but nuclear sites? ... It's really hard to justify a nuclear halflife based on results in ideal conditions. Even the Exxon Valdize doesn't have half the problems that a large nuclear accident could bring.

And I'm sorry but, I was in the UK when they started finding radioactive particles on the beach just down fron a British Nuke site. People were sunbathing on that beach and anyone laying on it would have been irradiated.

You just don't hear stories like this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...512884,00.html with regard to wind farms and the like. So far, the best they have come up with is they are ugly.

A couple of the sites you sent me to were cool. The U of Chicago biomass for example. I'm all for that.

I know I don't live in an ideal world AND I am a pessimist. I am very hard to convince on this issue.

The Smoking Man

I know I am way off topic with this comment and I apologize in advance but:

hitssquad

Could one sunbathe without being irradiated?

The Smoking Man

In the North of England ... YES.

Do yourselves a favour and never tell these people about global warming. They'll be on the streets in droves burning old refrigerators and squirting aerosols into the air.

They had a clear day once near where I was born and they were threatening to sacrifice a virgin so the 'big yellow thing' would leave the sky. Thank heavens they couldn't find one.

loseyourname

Grants are a large part of the bill. Again, something you would know if you would read it already.

loseyourname

Argumentum ad hominem means argumentation against the person. It's a way of deflecting from the actual arguments being made by your opponent. It is and has always been considered an informal logical fallacy. If you think this:

I am older and more experienced than you.
Therefore, you are wrong.

Is a valid argument, show me the truth table for it. It isn't.

You have the same amount of experience with this particular bill as I do - none. Heck, I might have more experience than you since I bothered to take a look at the thing before deciding it was all bunk. I decided to make up my own mind instead of accepting the headline accounts of what it contained.

Not at all. I find plenty wrong with it. But they had to pass a policy of some sort and this is as good as anything else that was proposed. I'm asking you to read it because I feel that knowledge of a given bill is a prerequisite for intelligent discussion of the bill.

What "type?" All you've complained about are the rebates, which make up something like 11 out of 40 titles in the bill. There is a lot more to it than that, including many of the things you are saying should be included.

If you insist, but guess what? There are men as expert as you, more expert than you, that think otherwise. The appeal to authority doesn't work when the authorities can't come to agreement. That's why I'd like to at least see a specific objection to this legislation. Besides, you're wrong on at least one count. Tax rebates for energy conservation here in California have been very effective, and I'm glad this bill expands them. Or perhaps you thought the conservation rebates were primarily for energy providers, not individuals and businesses that actually use the energy. Maybe if you read the bill you wouldn't think that.