Is the electric field in matter affected by polarization?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the calculation of the electric displacement field D(r) in a polarized object, specifically whether to account for the electric field created by the polarized object itself or only the external electric field that induced the polarization. The scope includes theoretical aspects of electromagnetism and the relationship between electric fields and polarization in materials.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Ray questions whether to include the electric field created by the polarized object when calculating D(r) using the equation D(r) = epsilon E + P.
  • One participant asserts that the total electric field must include the field due to the object itself.
  • Another participant corrects Ray's equation and provides two equations for D, explaining the distinction between the permittivity in free space and that in the material.
  • A participant notes that the electric field inside the object differs from the external electric field that would exist without the object.
  • Ray later states that he only needed to include the external field that created the polarization, suggesting a resolution to his initial confusion.
  • Another participant agrees that the electric field is the same in both equations presented.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There are competing views regarding the necessity of including the electric field created by the polarized object in the calculation of D(r). While some participants clarify the equations and their implications, Ray concludes that only the external field is necessary for his calculations.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved aspects regarding the definitions of permittivity and the conditions under which the equations apply, as well as the assumptions made about the electric field in different contexts.

rayveldkamp
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Hi,
Suppose we have a polarized object, and wish to calculate D(r) using
D(r) = epsilon E + P

Do we have to account for the electric field that the polarized object creates, or is it enough to just use the electric field which created the polarization?
Thanks

Ray
 
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That equation relates the total E field to the total D field, so you should include the field due to the object.
 
rayveldkamp said:
Hi,
Suppose we have a polarized object, and wish to calculate D(r) using
D(r) = epsilon E + P

Do we have to account for the electric field that the polarized object creates, or is it enough to just use the electric field which created the polarization?
Thanks

Ray


Your question is a touch confusing, and the equation is incorrect.

The correct equations which both apply to your question are:

[tex]D = \epsilon E[/tex] and
[tex]D = \epsilon_0 E + P[/tex]

In the first equation, the E is the actual E in the material but the epsilon
is related to the material, not to free space. In the second equation, the
epsilon is the epsilon of free space but the E is not the E which you would
measure in the material.

The object will have a different electric field inside it than the electric
field which would have been present if the object were not there.
The D vector does not change whether the mateiral is there or not.
 
I assumed that Ray did leave the subscript 0 out of the epsilon.
The E is the same in each of Antiphon's trwo equatiopns.
The equations are just related by the connection between epsilon and chi, the electric susceptibillity.
 
Hi,
Thanks for the replys, it turned out i only needed to include the field that created the polarization. Help was appreciated.
Thanks

Ray
 
Meir is right. It's the same E in both equations.
 

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