Atheism

sameandnot

i mean: we cannot say that god is an entity whom is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent. all we can say is: what we are referring to when we say "god", is simple omnisciece, omnibenevolence and omnipotence. in other words, what we refer to as being god is: all-power, all-knowing (or all-knowledge), and all-goodness. (period) ;)

sameandnot

to say that god is some entity, is to limit god, to being not some other entity... no? therefore we cannot say that god is some "thing". but rather examine if there is all-power, and what is all-power? if there is all-knowing, and what is it? etc. still, even though we have labeled "god" as being such characteristics, we must also know that, what "god" really is, is also not limited by our definitions, and is thereby infinitely more than we can ever say He is.

Orefa

It's only difficult if you try to grasp too much. Maybe you are reading more into it that what is there. I never spoke of a big bearded guy or a sexy gal either. This is why my little "proof" works for me, I don't try to over-analyze the concept of God, just to state what it would take for me to start worshipping. (By the way, I think She would also have to be hot. )

A willful, all-powerful and all-knowing reality is what it would take. This reality does not have to be tangible, but it does need to be real otherwise what's the point? That's all.

sameandnot

good!* the point is to talk about this as well as think about it in ways that are coherent, and continue to shed light on the Reality. many do not even know what it is they say, and it is quite silly.

check it: so long as you have a concept of what you are, you are limiting yourSelf and pretending to be something that you ARE not. When you impose your will, you are projecing it from an idea of what you are, which is, in Reality, false to begin with. this may be too much, for right now, but it must be "put it out there", as it might be "seen". when you have no self- or otherwise-imposed idea of self, then you are. and what's more: you are equivalent with "That," which, in itself, Is, and also cannot be named. do you see that, the limiting of one's Self, by defining it as being some particular thing, is the seed of the seperation from That unnamable Source, which is actually only (and all of) That/This? it's only logic. pure rationality has derived all of this explanation.

*a message for: orefa!!

amazing how the ego fights for its survival in the face That... just doesn't want to let go.

mugsby

sameandnot so far you've talked a lot but havin't made one point (to me at least),

sameandnot

who am i to think that i can make knowledge claims, such as what you want to hear? i can, however, identify where we have our ignorances, and therefore help to unfold the mind to greater and greater self-awareness, by exposing ignorance and assumptions. your comment was not unforeseen, mugsby. it was known that it would come at some point, and perhaps even today! lo and behold, you have done it! really... with our finite minds (as in our limited means to "know" every"thing"), how can i make claims that suggest i know everything.

here is a point, just for you, since the previous post was not enough, apparently: we can not say what it is, but only negate that which it is not. suggestion: begin by examing what you are... rather, determine if you have long believed yourself to be something you are not. after you have seen what you are not, or what is not, what you are left with is what is, and what you ARE. no?

"the mind is a labyrinth", was once said. you find your way through the labyrinth, by negating the possible ways you might go, (those which you have found to not be the way) and then by actualizing the only path that remains.

my previous post, told you in plain words the seed of Ignorance, itself being Ignorance, yet you want me to make claims, that are some how greater than that!! i know, i am not saying things that You want to hear. sorry.

mugsby

it's not that your saying things i don't want to hear, your just rambling. you can form you opinions based on what you have personaly experienced and learned in your limited time on earth or live in speculation. whatever works for you.

sameandnot

opinions are heavy. if i carry them i must also carry beliefs. no? and if i am carrying those two, i must already be carrying lots of "knowledge". ugh! how could i get any where with all that baggage?!

plus, it's all based on the idea that i can "know", or that humanity can "know", but this is not so. all knowledge is self-referencing and therefore the extant of "knowledge" is endless and doomed to be incomplete.

oh well... i see no point in living in Ignorance, of the facts.

i guess, maybe, just maybe, i am kinda like a mental trainer, to helps the obese shed the harmful and burdensome, extra weight.

maybe all that weight is what keeps the halo down...

sameandnot

i try to stick with the "philosophy people", as living philosophically is the only way that "philosophy" has any meaning... otherwise it's just rhetoric and empty words. so, for the philosopher, i am.... i guess...

..
~

mugsby

to me being a philosopher means lacking the ability to form an opinion. lets face it you'll never know everything, so why not take what you do know and use that?

sameandnot

what do you Know?

mugsby

enough to find a path that i'm happy with and for making the complex simple.

sameandnot

the only "thing" you can Know, is yourself. Further, the only thing you need to know is what you can know. The rest of your "knowledge" is really Ignorance. isn't it? at least you can agree, that without knowing yourself, all subsequent knowledge will be grown from the ignorance of the truth of yourself. that is, You are the one who seeks, but who is the seeker? if you do not know the seeker, how can you validate any subsequent "knowledge", that the seek has created, or as we like to say: "Discovered"?

sameandnot

how is the complex made simple, sir?

mugsby

well i could be like you and say that i can't 'know' because you can never 'know' to actually 'know' and then provide my own rebuttals to every question that i come up with. or i can just realize that my life is finite and their will never be a solution to a question that has no answer. therefore the only answer that the individual can come up with is based on how he/she perceives the question and what biases that person may have.

simple

sameandnot

"provide my own rebuttals to every question that i come up with."? there is only one question. that is simplicity, mugsby, and you don't know, so i am here.

i am telling you that you can Know, but not unless you first know the question, and therefore, the Problem. you do not want to see this. perhaps it is terrifying... the unknown often is.

You don't know that you don't Know, because you think that you do. that is an assumption, which, essentially, is Ignorance. You think that you know what You are, and that causes a Problem with seeing what the "You" is.

I am trying to spell this out very clearly, do you follow? vaguely? If you are now saying, to yourself, that you Know, tell me what You are. But if you accept that you don't know This is much less difficult... but I have Eternal time, so time is not a factor.

It is great because this ties directly into this original post, though, maybe you do not see the connection. Everything is connected, mugsby.

to live simply is to See simplicity. Even the complexity, is simplicity; This is simple. But first you must, dive, as a diver for a pearl (to borrow an analogy), in search of the Self. These are directions. you see? after this, I will have to go, which i guess might be perceived as unfortunate... Really, though, where can any'thing' ever be, but Here. You might say that It's All relative, or not. maybe better to not confine it to a label.

All of my posts could be considered meaningless or pointless, but they are certainly none of that... then again maybe they are... well, one thing's for sure: they have all pointed directly at the Source, but many have "taken the Moon for the finger" that points to it. "Nonsense," you say. Whatever. If you want to Know any'thing', know first the source of the perceiver. From whence to I perceive. What is the "I" that I know to be constant, through all of my mental and physical changes, and I that also conceive to be the same in all "I's"? Ever consider, what You are? That Knowledge is the Base, mugs; like the trunk of the Tree, or better: the roots.

When a tree grows of ignorance, chop that thing down. it's like when we chop down a scientific theory due to inconstancy. Make room for the healthier tree, which will sprout some real fruits. It's simple really... What are you? "Where you're at": is instantly answered, "what You're doing Here": as well, "what's up?", "Where you're going": at the same time. there is no more disturbance of these things... can't be, cause you See and Know. From that, every "fruit" follows naturally.

While typing this i see you yelling from your post... does that mean that your momentary smiley face is really a mask. a mask hiding some crazy, inhibited frustration? frustrated from all the complexity?

ok. i'm done. check it out mugsy, and who ever else is ripe. I am not here to sell you an ideology. I am giving you nothing, as well, nor do i want anything from you. But like I said, "Every"thing's" Connected". See? Check it out. (inside) see what you find. (that you are) don't stop, or fall asleep, until you know the truth of It. That is what I'm saying, have been saying and will always be saying... right Now.

To get you started... "Am I this body?" check it out. "Am I this mind?" check it out. pick up the scent and never lose it, till you've found It's Source, k?

God speed.

peas.

mugsby

clearly i have found 'self' or at least a place where i'm content and have provided myself answers to questions that apparently your still looking for. you claim 'ignorance' and to that i say your deluding yourself about the realities of the situation, life is only as hard as you make it when your dealing with abstractions in your mind. don't pass yourself off as a sage when you can't come to a conclusion with the tools provided to you by the real, tangible world.

ps: you read WAY to much into an emoticon i'd say application of thought is as important as the thought itself! *hint* *hint* how ya like me now.