Perpetual Machines


by young e.
Tags: machines, perpetual
young e.
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#1
Sep7-05, 02:55 AM
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I Hope I Posted This Question In The Right Thread....


By All Means, Is There Any Possibility Leading To The Development Of Perpetual Machines? Tnx Pf Folks...
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hitssquad
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#2
Sep7-05, 05:25 AM
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Do you mean machines that reproduce themselves?
FredGarvin
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#3
Sep7-05, 06:39 AM
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If by perpetual, you mean perpetual motion then the answer is not likely ever. If someone could manage to get around laws of thermodynamics it could happen.

As an extra read, take a quick look at the Wiki article herePerpetual Motion and not the section on criteria and violations.

El Hombre Invisible
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#4
Sep7-05, 07:59 AM
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Perpetual Machines


Can't currents in superconducting loops be perpetual? God knows what help that would be in machines, but it would be perpetual motion of a sort.
young e.
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#5
Sep7-05, 10:04 PM
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Quote Quote by hitssquad
Do you mean machines that reproduce themselves?
nope. i mean produces perpetual motion...
Physics_wiz
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#6
Sep7-05, 11:39 PM
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I've always wandered...isn't an atom a perpetual motion machine? Electrons moving around nucleus don't stop, do they?
young e.
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#7
Sep8-05, 01:15 AM
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Quote Quote by Physics_wiz
I've always wandered...isn't an atom a perpetual motion machine? Electrons moving around nucleus don't stop, do they?

not in atomic or sub atomic level...i mean a machine specially designed that, it will continously move without the advent of burning any form of fuels...ergo by this method we could prevent fuel crisis that may happen somewhere sometimes in the future... IS THERE ANY RESEARCH CONDUCTED AS OF THIS TIME?
sid_galt
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#8
Sep8-05, 01:50 AM
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Let's say if we create a vane and a dynamo on a nanoscale such that on an average no more than one molecule hits against the vane. A shaft connects the gear and the dynamo. Via a bearing, the motor is connected to a stand. The dynamo and the stand are in a vacuumated box fixed to the gorund and the gear is in the outside air.

Random pushing of the molecules against the vane will rotate it in both directions and because of the dynamo, energy will be extracted. How does this violate the law of entropy?
El Hombre Invisible
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#9
Sep8-05, 04:03 AM
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Quote Quote by Physics_wiz
I've always wandered...isn't an atom a perpetual motion machine? Electrons moving around nucleus don't stop, do they?
They can be stopped insofar as they can be destroyed by electron capture (electron + proton in nucleus = neutron). But, yes, a stable atom is I guess some kind of perpetual motion machine, as far as I know. I've never heard of a half-life for helium 4, for instance.
LURCH
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#10
Sep8-05, 10:55 AM
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Quote Quote by young e.
IS THERE ANY RESEARCH CONDUCTED AS OF THIS TIME?
There are some studies, many of them are of dubious nature. You could check into "Zero Point Energy". This field is somewhat fringe, and not generally accepted by most of the mainstream, but it's not entirely unfounded crackpottery. Tapping ZPE would not exactly be "perpetual motion" (a machine that will run forever), but it's the next best thing; a machine that will run for as long as the universe continues to operate. In terms of solving energy crises, it would be the same.
deckart
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#11
Sep8-05, 11:08 AM
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It would seem to me a machine that ran perpetually would be worthless if it could not produce work. If it produces work, where would the additional energy come from for it to "perpetuate"? You have something for nothing. A perpetuating device might be a novelty to look at but other than that...
russ_watters
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#12
Sep8-05, 12:04 PM
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Quote Quote by young e.
not in atomic or sub atomic level...i mean a machine specially designed that, it will continously move without the advent of burning any form of fuels...ergo by this method we could prevent fuel crisis that may happen somewhere sometimes in the future... IS THERE ANY RESEARCH CONDUCTED AS OF THIS TIME?
There is no research being done on this because it is a violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics for such a machine to exist. FYI, what you describe is called a "type 1 perpetual motion machine" because it violates the 1st law of thermo. There are other types, but all fail because they violate the laws of physics: http://www.kilty.com/pmotion.htm

Some things that are not self-powering, such as a solar powered steam engine, are not violations of the laws of thermo, so they would be possible, and they'd seem close to a perpetual motion machine..
FredGarvin
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#13
Sep8-05, 03:26 PM
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Quote Quote by sid_galt
Let's say if we create a vane and a dynamo on a nanoscale such that on an average no more than one molecule hits against the vane. A shaft connects the gear and the dynamo. Via a bearing, the motor is connected to a stand. The dynamo and the stand are in a vacuumated box fixed to the gorund and the gear is in the outside air.

Random pushing of the molecules against the vane will rotate it in both directions and because of the dynamo, energy will be extracted. How does this violate the law of entropy?
Entropy will be created in the bearing and the shaft. Deflections of all items will take up some of the energy and can not be recovered. The same with the frictional forces.
Intuitive
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#14
Oct5-05, 01:59 PM
P: 271
Quote Quote by young e.
I Hope I Posted This Question In The Right Thread....


By All Means, Is There Any Possibility Leading To The Development Of Perpetual Machines? Tnx Pf Folks...
1. Perpetual Motion Machines are Novelties of the Imagination.

1. Finding a Perfect Catalytic Circle of reactions under strict scientific Conditions may hold some key to Free Energy, But this would require full knowledge of Catalytic reactions to make it full circle, Each Ideal Catalyst would recycle the byproduct to another Ideal Catalyst until a condition is met that produces a perfect chemical reaction conversion. (Self Contained). until then it too is a Novelty.

If you are interested in researching what may be a close proximation to a perpetual motion machine you can go here:
http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html

I have not heard of it being a hoax yet.

It's still Novelty.
Danger
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#15
Oct5-05, 02:36 PM
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I can't quite make out what that gizmo is doing, but it sure looks neat. I want one.
Intuitive
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#16
Oct5-05, 03:24 PM
P: 271
Quote Quote by Danger
I can't quite make out what that gizmo is doing, but it sure looks neat. I want one.
The Steel Ball runs around a track on an indefinate orbit, it uses Magnetism, various motion gates and uses Earth Gravity to keep the Steel Ball in motion.

It is a mock of Orbital influences and closed loop system, Tapping any energy off of the device causes it to cease functioning. If it has no disturbances then it in theory will orbit indefinately around the track.

Beautiful Novelty Item, I clap my hands at its elegant work.

There is also a movie you can play to watch it function.
Danger
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#17
Oct5-05, 04:29 PM
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Thanks. I already watched the movie, but it goes too fast and ends too soon. The viewer on this machine won't let me grab the progress-bar tab to slow or stop it. It should work okay at home.
enigma
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#18
Oct6-05, 03:08 PM
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I assure you it's a hoax. Perpetual motion machines are impossible. Every claim that one has been made has been debunked in short order. That being said, I'm closing this thread... this isn't engineering.


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