Discover the Possibility of Developing Perpetual Machines | Tips from Experts

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the possibility of developing perpetual machines, specifically focusing on the concept of perpetual motion and its implications within the laws of thermodynamics. Participants explore theoretical ideas, existing research, and the feasibility of such machines from various perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether perpetual machines could exist, with one stating that perpetual motion is unlikely due to the laws of thermodynamics.
  • Others propose that superconducting currents could be considered a form of perpetual motion, although this is not universally accepted.
  • A participant suggests that atomic structures might resemble perpetual motion machines due to the continuous movement of electrons, but this is challenged by others who emphasize the need for a machine designed to operate without fuel.
  • One idea involves creating a nanoscale device that utilizes molecular interactions to generate energy, raising questions about its compliance with the law of entropy.
  • Another participant mentions "Zero Point Energy" as a fringe area of research that might offer insights into energy generation, though it does not equate to true perpetual motion.
  • Concerns are raised about the practicality and theoretical implications of machines that could run perpetually, with some arguing that such machines would violate fundamental physical laws.
  • Several participants express skepticism about the existence of perpetual machines, labeling them as novelties or hoaxes, while others remain curious about potential research avenues.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the feasibility of perpetual machines, with multiple competing views presented. While some assert that perpetual motion is impossible, others explore theoretical constructs that might challenge this view.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various types of perpetual motion machines and their violations of thermodynamic laws, indicating a lack of consensus on definitions and implications. Discussions also touch on the distinction between theoretical concepts and practical applications.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring theoretical physics, energy generation concepts, or the implications of thermodynamic laws in engineering and design.

young e.
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I Hope I Posted This Question In The Right Thread...


By All Means, Is There Any Possibility Leading To The Development Of Perpetual Machines? Tnx Pf Folks...
 
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Do you mean machines that reproduce themselves?
 
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If by perpetual, you mean perpetual motion then the answer is not likely ever. If someone could manage to get around laws of thermodynamics it could happen.

As an extra read, take a quick look at the Wiki article herePerpetual Motion and not the section on criteria and violations.
 
Can't currents in superconducting loops be perpetual? God knows what help that would be in machines, but it would be perpetual motion of a sort.
 
hitssquad said:
Do you mean machines that reproduce themselves?

nope. i mean produces perpetual motion...
 
I've always wandered...isn't an atom a perpetual motion machine? Electrons moving around nucleus don't stop, do they?
 
Physics_wiz said:
I've always wandered...isn't an atom a perpetual motion machine? Electrons moving around nucleus don't stop, do they?


not in atomic or sub atomic level...i mean a machine specially designed that, it will continously move without the advent of burning any form of fuels...ergo by this method we could prevent fuel crisis that may happen somewhere sometimes in the future... IS THERE ANY RESEARCH CONDUCTED AS OF THIS TIME?
 
Let's say if we create a vane and a dynamo on a nanoscale such that on an average no more than one molecule hits against the vane. A shaft connects the gear and the dynamo. Via a bearing, the motor is connected to a stand. The dynamo and the stand are in a vacuumated box fixed to the gorund and the gear is in the outside air.

Random pushing of the molecules against the vane will rotate it in both directions and because of the dynamo, energy will be extracted. How does this violate the law of entropy?
 
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Physics_wiz said:
I've always wandered...isn't an atom a perpetual motion machine? Electrons moving around nucleus don't stop, do they?
They can be stopped insofar as they can be destroyed by electron capture (electron + proton in nucleus = neutron). But, yes, a stable atom is I guess some kind of perpetual motion machine, as far as I know. I've never heard of a half-life for helium 4, for instance.
 
  • #10
young e. said:
IS THERE ANY RESEARCH CONDUCTED AS OF THIS TIME?
There are some studies, many of them are of dubious nature. You could check into "Zero Point Energy". This field is somewhat fringe, and not generally accepted by most of the mainstream, but it's not entirely unfounded crackpottery. Tapping ZPE would not exactly be "perpetual motion" (a machine that will run forever), but it's the next best thing; a machine that will run for as long as the universe continues to operate. In terms of solving energy crises, it would be the same.
 
  • #11
It would seem to me a machine that ran perpetually would be worthless if it could not produce work. If it produces work, where would the additional energy come from for it to "perpetuate"? You have something for nothing. A perpetuating device might be a novelty to look at but other than that...
 
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  • #12
young e. said:
not in atomic or sub atomic level...i mean a machine specially designed that, it will continously move without the advent of burning any form of fuels...ergo by this method we could prevent fuel crisis that may happen somewhere sometimes in the future... IS THERE ANY RESEARCH CONDUCTED AS OF THIS TIME?
There is no research being done on this because it is a violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics for such a machine to exist. FYI, what you describe is called a "type 1 perpetual motion machine" because it violates the 1st law of thermo. There are other types, but all fail because they violate the laws of physics: http://www.kilty.com/pmotion.htm

Some things that are not self-powering, such as a solar powered steam engine, are not violations of the laws of thermo, so they would be possible, and they'd seem close to a perpetual motion machine..
 
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  • #13
sid_galt said:
Let's say if we create a vane and a dynamo on a nanoscale such that on an average no more than one molecule hits against the vane. A shaft connects the gear and the dynamo. Via a bearing, the motor is connected to a stand. The dynamo and the stand are in a vacuumated box fixed to the gorund and the gear is in the outside air.

Random pushing of the molecules against the vane will rotate it in both directions and because of the dynamo, energy will be extracted. How does this violate the law of entropy?
Entropy will be created in the bearing and the shaft. Deflections of all items will take up some of the energy and can not be recovered. The same with the frictional forces.
 
  • #14
young e. said:
I Hope I Posted This Question In The Right Thread...


By All Means, Is There Any Possibility Leading To The Development Of Perpetual Machines? Tnx Pf Folks...

1. Perpetual Motion Machines are Novelties of the Imagination.

1. Finding a Perfect Catalytic Circle of reactions under strict scientific Conditions may hold some key to Free Energy, But this would require full knowledge of Catalytic reactions to make it full circle, Each Ideal Catalyst would recycle the byproduct to another Ideal Catalyst until a condition is met that produces a perfect chemical reaction conversion. (Self Contained). until then it too is a Novelty.

If you are interested in researching what may be a close proximation to a perpetual motion machine you can go here:
http://www.reidarfinsrud.no/sider/mobile/foto.html

I have not heard of it being a hoax yet.

It's still Novelty.
 
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  • #15
I can't quite make out what that gizmo is doing, but it sure looks neat. I want one. :biggrin:
 
  • #16
Danger said:
I can't quite make out what that gizmo is doing, but it sure looks neat. I want one. :biggrin:

The Steel Ball runs around a track on an indefinate orbit, it uses Magnetism, various motion gates and uses Earth Gravity to keep the Steel Ball in motion.

It is a mock of Orbital influences and closed loop system, Tapping any energy off of the device causes it to cease functioning. If it has no disturbances then it in theory will orbit indefinately around the track.

Beautiful Novelty Item, I clap my hands at its elegant work.

There is also a movie you can play to watch it function.
 
  • #17
Thanks. I already watched the movie, but it goes too fast and ends too soon. The viewer on this machine won't let me grab the progress-bar tab to slow or stop it. It should work okay at home.
 
  • #18
I assure you it's a hoax. Perpetual motion machines are impossible. Every claim that one has been made has been debunked in short order. That being said, I'm closing this thread... this isn't engineering.
 

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