Mind without Sight: Thoughts and Visualization

[revesz]

when we see we can understand what we are looking at, we can also visualize what it is that we have seen if we commit it to memory. But why do we visualize our thoughts only to the front of us? for example visualize a train moving through your mind, do you see it right in front of you? well i have found difficulty seeing images or thoughts anywhere but where my eyes can see. Any point beyond my perefrial vision i can't visualize on. This leads me to beleave that we think in 2 dimentions. Is it possible to visualize in 3dimentions? and what would our thoughts be like without sight?

These are just some of my thoughts of conscienceness.

 

[blu]

il try to explain this...


Ok, now that I've tried it i know exactly what u mean

Its often automaticly, but not concsioulsy assumed that are eyes are where we see", or where vision occurs

That doesn't seem to make much, sense, but what I am referring to is that sight itself(The actual chemical reactions), occur in the optic lobe, which is located in the back of the head, and it ccan also be assumed that what are eyes translate light(electromagnetic radiation)
into something useful, (colors)

also consider that we do not need our eyes too "see"
dreams, in which we can clearly "see",
do not have anything to do with the eyes((besides moving)


"Is is possible to visualize in 3 dimensions?"

first, consider what the difference between "visualizing" and "seeing" is,


so i guees the answer would be yes, if you consider dreaming, in which we, without using our eyes(And therefore our perhipheal field), "see"

 

[revesz]

in dreams we still see in the same way that we do with our eyes (two dimentionaly on our perifrial field). but why is our perifrial field of thought limited to our perifrial field of sight?-sorry I am really not sure how to word that.

perhaps our mind developes thought where we see because that is where the images of sight already form. If so do people blind from birth still see in there head? And mabye it is possible to develope a larger field of thought.

 

[Eh]

Originally posted by revesz
when we see we can understand what we are looking at, we can also visualize what it is that we have seen if we commit it to memory.

Of course, because visualizing something is memory in action. Even visualizations of ideas we've never directly experienced are the combination of geometric experience.

But why do we visualize our thoughts only to the front of us?

Because we only experience objects from that viewpoint, and memory is the replaying of experience. Since we only experience the geomtric world through the 2D surfaces of structures in the visual cortex, we can only imagine things from a 2D perspective.

for example visualize a train moving through your mind, do you see it right in front of you? well i have found difficulty seeing images or thoughts anywhere but where my eyes can see. Any point beyond my perefrial vision i can't visualize on.

That is a harder question, because how visualizations and actual experiences interact is tricky. You can imagine the train, but what about the actual thing you are looking at? Does the train block out what would be behind it, as a real train would? I think they both go through the same filters in the brain and are processed in the same location as well. But but if one can imagine a solid like a train without being obstructed from seeing anything behind it, I have to wonder if there is any spatial relation at all.

Is it possible to visualize in 3dimentions?

This is certainly a no, coming from 2 sources of evidence. First off, we are certain from our experience that vision is 2 dimensional. Take any image of any object and you can locate anything on it with only X,Y coordinates. Second, data from the outside world provided by science reveals that the brain can only process 2D images received from the retina. Actually, this is the logical result of how the retina can receive light traveling in 3 dimensions. As such it is physically impossible for someone to imagine things in 3 dimensions. That why I laugh when someone claims to be able to picture a 4 spatial dimension, as they are either delluded or literally from another universe.

and what would our thoughts be like without sight?

Probably memories and assembled memories of our other experiences - touch, smell, taste, sound, emotions, etc.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by revesz
Is it possible to visualize in 3dimentions? and what would our thoughts be like without sight?

It is possible to dream in three dimensions, which is the next step removed from thought.

 

[Eh]

So what alternate universe are you from, Iacchus32? Hopefully one with an extra spatial dimension. If visions in dreams also take place in the visual cortex, then dreaming in 3D is a logical impossibility.

 

[revesz]

When you say that you dream in three dimentions do you mean that you can see in all directions from your point of reference, or do you mean that you experience something more?

Ok i first we need to establish what 3d visualization means.
Iacchus32 is probably referring to being able to see in all directions from a point of reference. but is that accurately described as seeing in 3d. In order to truly see in 3d there can be no point of reference, therefore it is impossible.

This is certainly a no, coming from 2 sources of evidence

When I ask if it is possible to see in 3d the question I am actualy asking is, is it possible to see in all directions. think of a fly, it has eyes that must be able to see in many directions(I'm assuming).
but does its brain interpret those images to be directly ahead?
What if we had eyes facing in all directions, would we see in all directions, or would all the image form in front of us?

 

[Eh]

In order to truly see in 3d there can be no point of reference, therefore it is impossible.

This isn't true for a hypothetical 4 dimensional person in a 4D universe. Such a person would see 3D spaces, as light should be traveling off all points on volumes. This as opposed to only light on surfaces being able to reach the retina.

When I ask if it is possible to see in 3d the question I am actualy asking is, is it possible to see in all directions. think of a fly, it has eyes that must be able to see in many directions(I'm assuming).

This is more akin to seeing a curved surface so as to have a 360 degree vision. The retina is actually curved, so it would just have to be more so. Still, we can't imagine this since we are restricted to the actual curvature our experience gives us. We would see what is behind us as well as in front, but it's not possible for us to imagine what a curved surface completely looks like from the same image.

One example is to look at the surface of a basketball. You can see the curvature of the surface, but you can't see the whole ball at once. Nor can we imagine what it looks like.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by revesz
Is it possible to visualize in 3dimentions? and what would our thoughts be like without sight?

When you have been, sun stroke, or highly stressed, and been in the sun like on a long boat ride, it is possible to close your eyes, and see color video movies, of several seconds to miniutes, of a past visual experience a short time before this happens.

The movies in your mind are the most beautiful you can imagine. 3D and motion, as if it was real, and its possible to zoom in, if you looked far and then close, when your mind captured the images.

This is an experience with no drugs or drinking. Our mind can hold mpg movies but we do not know how to control it and bring it up on demand.