Water fountain +dynamo (Free energy?)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of using a water fountain combined with a dynamo to generate electricity, exploring the idea of "free energy" and whether such a system could operate indefinitely without external energy input. Participants examine the principles of energy conversion, potential energy, and the mechanics of water fountains, including theoretical models and practical limitations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if water from a fountain falls onto a dynamo, it could theoretically generate electricity indefinitely if the water is cycled back without loss.
  • Others argue that energy is required to lift water back to a higher level, and any energy generated from the falling water would be equal to the energy used to raise it, thus not creating free energy.
  • Several participants point out that friction and inefficiencies would further prevent the system from maintaining a steady flow of energy, reinforcing the impossibility of perpetual motion.
  • A participant mentions the historical context of perpetual motion machines, suggesting that the idea has been debunked for centuries.
  • Some contributions include humorous or exaggerated examples of perpetual motion machines, illustrating skepticism about the feasibility of such concepts.
  • A later reply describes a specific type of fountain mechanism (Hero's Fountain) and discusses its principles, noting that it is not perpetual and would eventually stop without an external energy source.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the feasibility of the proposed system for generating free energy. While some explore the theoretical aspects, the majority assert that the system cannot work as described due to fundamental physical principles.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the exact mechanics of the fountain being discussed, with some acknowledging limitations in their understanding of the proposed setup. The discussion highlights the dependence on definitions of energy sources and the assumptions underlying the feasibility of the ideas presented.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals exploring concepts in physics, particularly those related to energy conservation, mechanics of fluids, and the principles of perpetual motion machines.

bipin
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Guys,

I hope you know the principal of WATER-FOUNTAIN (like the one you see in park etc... that don't need much additional mantinance or EXTERNAL energy to operate)

See the pic (attached.)

If the water in top bucket is made to fall directly on the top of the blades of (small)dynamo. Hydro-electricity will generate. So,(say) if this mechanism is put in a closed environment & made in a way the water discharge/sec through the fountain head EQUALS the rate falling water over the dynamo blade...

(Theoritically) isn't it possible to tap out electricity for infinite amount of time?I don't seen a bug in this process... (help me figure out)

free energy?

-bipin
 

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You DO realize energy is needed to lift the water from a lower level to a higher level, right? You must do work to increase its potential energy.
This energy is converted to kinetic energy when the water falls down. If you put a dynamo you can convert some of that kinetic energy to electric energy, but not more than the kinetic energy the water had in the first place.
If you would build a PERFECT (doesn't exist) machine to convert all the kinetic energy of the water drops falling down to whatever energy, the best you could do is keep the fountain running (use that energy to lift the water back up the fountain).
 
Free energy? No.

Here's the bug: what lifts the water back up? The same energy that hydro-energy it creates. NOt only that, friction will take some of that energy away, so the system will not even maintain a steady, unchanging flow. In no way will more energy come out.

This is the same perpetual motion idea that comes up once a week for the past 700 years.

Edit: Galileo beat me to it again! Well he did have a 400 year head start.
 
The best idea for a "perpetual motion machine" I have ever seen was a little wheel with weights about it labled with their weight. As they went around, the weights that were labled "6" on one side became "9" on the other- the greater weights on one side turned the wheel!
 
HallsofIvy said:
The best idea for a "perpetual motion machine" I have ever seen was a little wheel with weights about it labled with their weight. As they went around, the weights that were labled "6" on one side became "9" on the other- the greater weights on one side turned the wheel!
So, where's the bug in that? All you need to do is put half the machine on earth, and the other half on Mars!
 
bipin said:
(Theoritically) isn't it possible to tap out electricity for infinite amount of time?I don't seen a bug in this process... (help me figure out)

free energy?
Well, it's free insofar as you are stealing it from whoever owns the water fountain and or the pump that is pushing the water... :rolleyes:
 
I stand corrected. If you put a dynamo under the water fountain in the park and use it to charge battery you have energy without HAVING TO PAY FOR IT! Free energy! Don't get caught though. :wink:
 
you guys DON'T get me... you know how water fountain work. do you? I'm not talking about the ONE that uses pumps to keep the water flowing... I'm talking about the one... (let me think... how can i explain) mmm... i didn't even got a pic on internet....

I forgot the exact PIC. but see the atachment... (SOMETHING like that) & that's a automatic process...

the red lines are the pipes connecting the two "air-tight" chambers... & the fountain operate due to the pressure difference created...

(something like that... i forgot the actual fountain MECHANISM/DIAGRAM...)

haven't any of you guys seen that mechanism... huh!
 

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HallsofIvy said:
The best idea for a "perpetual motion machine" I have ever seen was a little wheel with weights about it labled with their weight. As they went around, the weights that were labled "6" on one side became "9" on the other- the greater weights on one side turned the wheel!
BRILLIANT! I love it!
 
  • #10
bipin said:
you guys DON'T get me...
Oh, we get you all right.


In answer to your proposed setup v2.0:
The fountain will run until the water has fallen to its lowest level. And then it will stop.
 
  • #11
i was just talking abt. the principle... behing SUCH fountain. it ain't "setup v2.0:"

water will continue to fall & CYCLE (both the chambers are airtight)... but i still doubt* if the PYPING stup is rite... (anyways) just to explain...

the same water will fall & cycle... cauz the pressure difference is created.

(I doubt if anyone is getting me) MY MISTAKE )O; i can't exactly explain...
 
  • #12
bipin said:
(I doubt if anyone is getting me) MY MISTAKE )O; i can't exactly explain...

As dave already said, yes we get you. Here's the deal: a bunch of people who have degrees in Physics and engineering are telling you this can't work for "free energy." We can see exactly what you are talking about and we each could tell you in detail why this can't work.

But instead of saying that we don't get it, try thinking, for a moment, that maybe such a simple idea for "free energy" would have been invented and put to use by now?
 
  • #13
I'm not an expert in water fountains, but the only way you could keep a water fountain flowing without an external input of energy is if you were somehow using sunlight to drive it. Perhaps the water fountains you have seen use sunlight to heat the water or a gas and create a pressure differential. As has been said above, the ONLY way to get water from a lower level to a higher level is to give it more energy, and that energy HAS to come from somewhere. Any water fountain that does not have an external source of energy will stop flowing eventually. In reality, every fountain you have come across will have some source of energy, even if it is just the pressure in the water pipes supplying the water.
If you were using the sun to power your fountain, then in a perfect system the electrical energy you could generate would be exactly equal to the solar energy being absorbed by the fountain, in which case it would probably just be easier to use solar panels.
 
  • #14
You could test your theory by getting one of those bobbing birds that drinks water and hooking a crank to its ass.
 
  • #15
Maybe he thinkgs water pumps are mysterious machaines that transport water with no use of energy...
 
  • #16
bipin your first idea won't work because energy gained will be wasted bringing it back up, losing energy in the process. water can't magically defy gravity. duh

in your second device, you are basically taking the idea with the water wheel and that one tube made by that famous greek mathmatician whose name i always forget and putting it together but with tubes instead of a water wheel. the pull of gravity on the tube that takes the water down would be about equal to the pull on what takes the water up, so it would all come to a standstill

hehe 8th grade ownage. anyways did you come up with those ideas on your own. they are highly creative but not possible. i have an idea of my own and wether or not it works will be decided in a few weeks when i turn in my science project
 
  • #17
Hero's Fountain

It looks like the pic is a version of a Hero's (Heron of Alexandria) fountain. The principle is having an open chamber with two openings. Fill the chamber with water, the water flows through a tube to a lower, airtight vessel, creating air pressure in that vessel. The air pressure is transferred to another, higher airtight vessel filled with water which, in turn, pushes water downward through another tube that goes up to the original chamber through a spout, that in turn fills that chamber which flows to the bottom airtight vessel. Not perpetual because eventually, the water in the one vessel ends up in the other. You can only push air from the lowest vessel to the middle vessel, not water. But I think his thought is if there were an electric generator on the top fountain, could you pump the water when the level gets low. Or at least something along those lines. I built one myself (without a generator) and it is a very fun and amusing thing. I found a blog that showed me how to do it here. http://astroshack.blogspot.com/2006/09/im-holdin-out-for-hero.html.

Hope this helps...
 
  • #18
I have a "pump" you can borrow...hehehe

Casey
 
  • #19
Saladsamurai said:
I have a "pump" you can borrow...hehehe

Casey

Probably a very energy inefficient one, low output for high power. Though, it does have a very high response time and is quite compact. Burn :)

I have a better idea, two motors, one drives the other. Throw in a perfect vacuum and a few equally perfect appliances and shazzam, free electricity.
 

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