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Anarchy, again.

by Smurf
Tags: anarchy
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Smurf
#1
Oct27-05, 08:06 PM
P: 2,891
Quote Quote by Art
Out of interest Smurf I have a few questions. I'd like to know your opinions on the following. Do you support;
a) the idea of having a free national health service?
b) free / subsidised education?
c) welfare support for the unemployed?
d) welfare support for the sick and old?
e) public transport?
As long as we have a state, yes. The state can not be 'phased out' it must be overthrown. So untill we do that it mine as well be taking care of people.

P.S. And the more inefficient it is (if you believe that) the quicker the state will be overthrown.
Quote Quote by The Smoking Man
The best argument is that ther has not ever been a period in history when Anarchy ruled anywhere on earth.
Tell you what ... you point out all the successful incidents or how you forsee it happening.
I'll sit over here and get ready to poke holes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_an...st_communities

My favourites are Christiania and Zapatismo.
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The Smoking Man
#2
Oct27-05, 08:30 PM
P: 1,143
Quote Quote by Smurf
As long as we have a state, yes. The state can not be 'phased out' it must be overthrown. So untill we do that it mine as well be taking care of people.
P.S. And the more inefficient it is (if you believe that) the quicker the state will be overthrown.
Surely you jest ... China???
M'Kay ... remember where I am and the fact that of the three sites you posted I could view Zapatismo.

If you are trying to make a point ... you can't do it that way.
Smurf
#3
Oct27-05, 09:18 PM
P: 2,891
Quote Quote by The Smoking Man
If you are trying to make a point ... you can't do it that way.
A point? My point was to: "point out all the successful incidents or how [I] forsee it happening".

I'm waiting for you to poke holes in it. You're not going to do that too well if you're too lazy to look up the basics about christiania and zapatismo (or anything else on that list). It's not like they try and keep themselves secret.

The Smoking Man
#4
Oct27-05, 10:03 PM
P: 1,143
Anarchy, again.

Quote Quote by Smurf
A point? My point was to: "point out all the successful incidents or how [I] forsee it happening".
I'm waiting for you to poke holes in it. You're not going to do that too well if you're too lazy to look up the basics about christiania and zapatismo (or anything else on that list). It's not like they try and keep themselves secret.
Actually, what I am stating to you is that I am located in China and the sites are blocked except for the one.

One thing I can point out to you from the site I went to is that when you have people known as Comandanta, Subcomandante and has 'deligates', they certainly seem to have set up a revolutionary government with a heirarchy.

So how is this anarchy?

Are you saying a paramilitary, revolutionary, organization that failed in their intent and now survives in the wilderness smoking Pipes through balaclavas (ski masks) is in some way less reliant upon government when they clearly HAVE an internal structure that is even more imposing than the one they oppose.

Had they been successful and gained popular support, what would have been the outcome?

I notice the reference to Pancho Villa too.

So are you saying 'anarchy' is the result of a failed coup by communists?

So, the people comprising the NPA in the Philippines are really Anarchists and not people attempting to impost a military coup?

My mistake.
The Smoking Man
#5
Oct27-05, 10:19 PM
P: 1,143
PS. And a good portion of the links on the page are dead by the way.

So 'No' I am not lazy.

Your consideration of my position and my enthuziasm for debate is misguided.
Smurf
#6
Oct27-05, 10:20 PM
P: 2,891
Wikipedia is censored in China? My god, you poor people....
The Smoking Man
#7
Oct27-05, 10:22 PM
P: 1,143
Quote Quote by Smurf
Wikipedia is censored in China? My god, you poor people....
Not all of it.

When they upgraded the filters, they gave it the ability to filter at a finer level than the base URL.
Smurf
#8
Oct27-05, 10:39 PM
P: 2,891
Sophisticated censorship. Must be difficult for them to keep track of all the websites they've blocked.

Can you read this?
http://www.chiapaslink.ukgateway.net/ch1.html
The Smoking Man
#9
Oct28-05, 01:34 AM
P: 1,143
Quote Quote by Smurf
Sophisticated censorship. Must be difficult for them to keep track of all the websites they've blocked.
No, noe they can block on the basis of keywords.

Quote Quote by Smurf
Okay ... so you pointed out that Chiapas had problems like many places in the world.

So did The Philippines and they revolted in 1986 forcing Marcos to resign.

Now they have had a stream of 'presidents' over half of whom have been implicated in a variety of scandles and they have even allowed Imelda back in as a government representative.

Now, can you tell me what this has to do with anarchy?

Definition:

an·ar·chy (nr-k) KEY

NOUN:
pl. an·ar·chies

1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

ETYMOLOGY:
New Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhi, from anarkhos, without a ruler : an-, without ; see a- 1 + arkhos, ruler ; see -arch
coffee na lang dear
#10
Oct28-05, 02:03 AM
P: 22
Quote Quote by Smurf
As long as we have a state, yes. The state can not be 'phased out' it must be overthrown. So untill we do that it mine as well be taking care of people.
P.S. And the more inefficient it is (if you believe that) the quicker the state will be overthrown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Past_an...st_communities
My favourites are Christiania and Zapatismo.
Anarchy is a state of non-governance and lawlessness. What was happenning in Christiania and zapatismo are called consensus democracy therefore far from what anarchy means.

We Filipinos called what happened in 1986 as 'revolution' in transition to good governance from a 'not so good' government but it is never anarchy since laws were still imposed during those times.
alexandra
#11
Oct28-05, 11:58 AM
P: 603
Just to clarify what we're talking about, I thought I'd contribute a brief definition of 'anarchism' as a political theory/belief [extract reproduced from the 'Oxford Concise Dictionary of Politics' by McLean, I. (1996)]:
The view that society can and should be organized without a coercive state. <snip> This specialized usage of the word differs markedly from common usage, which takes anarchism as a synonym for moral and political disorder. This pejorative usage is as old as the Greek origins of the word. <snip> There is no single positive anarchist doctrine, and apart from their rejection of the state, anarchist thinkers differ fundamentally, supporting a range of proposals from the most extreme individualism to complete collectivism.

While supporters of the state see it as necessary to solve problems of security and order... anarchists reverse the argument, and see such problems as a direct consequence of its existence whatever form it may take.
Smurf
#12
Oct28-05, 01:16 PM
P: 2,891
Like Alexandra pointed out, Anarchism as a political theory is based around 2 principles

1. The absence of a state structure.
and
2. The absence of other destructive hierarchies.

Everything else varies from anarchist to anarchist, but any theory which involves these two principles is, at least in part, anarchist. And any theory which does not involve these two principles is not anarchist (such as the cop-out Anarcho-Capitalism or, even better, Anarcho-Fascism)

So..
Quote Quote by coffee na lang dear
Anarchy is a state of non-governance and lawlessness.
This is wrong since Anarchism is the absense of a "state" (joking! I know meant the other kind of state)
The Smoking Man
#13
Oct28-05, 04:21 PM
P: 1,143
So what you are saying then is that the brief 5 minutes before the Comandante actually assumes office is Anarchy.

Prior to that, they are revolutionary fighters/ Terrorists (by the State Definition).

And after that, they are a coup?
Smurf
#14
Oct28-05, 04:22 PM
P: 2,891
There is no 'office'.

Commandante and Subcommandante or mere words. Marcos has no (in the way you are perceiving it) power, he is a spokesperson. Esther too.

And they are not a coup, they are not trying to overthrow the mexican government.

And I'm sure they've always been 'terrorists' by the state's definition.
The Smoking Man
#15
Oct28-05, 04:27 PM
P: 1,143
Quote Quote by Smurf
There is no 'office'.
Commandante and Subcommandante or mere words. Marcos has no (in the way you are perceiving it) power, he is a spokesperson. Esther too.
And they are not a coup, they are not trying to overthrow the mexican government.
And I'm sure they've always been 'terrorists' by the state's definition.
So what you are describing are 'terrorists' who threaten a government into compliance and are unreachable because they can remain under cover?

Like Iraq?
The Smoking Man
#16
Oct28-05, 04:30 PM
P: 1,143
Oh, and the 'mere words' you talk about are designations of military rank.

Commander ... one who gives commands.

You know ... Klink said, "Hogan!!!!"

And Schultz said, "I know NOTHING!!!"

Commandant.
Smurf
#17
Oct28-05, 08:24 PM
P: 2,891
Comandanta doesn't mean commander actually. And I have no idea what the translation of subcomandante is, I can only seem to find it in relation to the zapatistas. It's possible they made it up.

Seriously, stop making assumptions.

Edit: Better yet, stop trying to villanize a group that's trying to fight back (and doing good) against a clearly oppressive government.
The Smoking Man
#18
Oct29-05, 03:29 AM
P: 1,143
Quote Quote by Smurf
Comandanta doesn't mean commander actually. And I have no idea what the translation of subcomandante is, I can only seem to find it in relation to the zapatistas. It's possible they made it up.
Seriously, stop making assumptions.
Edit: Better yet, stop trying to villanize a group that's trying to fight back (and doing good) against a clearly oppressive government.
Dude, it's the spanish feminine form of Commander.

Who's making assumptions?

You're the one posting the links. I'm reading them and coming back here and quoting them.

I don't know ... whenever I see a bunch of people dressed in cammo with bandoleers, balaclavas and they refer to one as commander and another as sub commander, I see a military unit of the revolutionary type.

What I am trying to figure out is why you assume this is 'anarchy'.

So, the American revolutionaries were 'anarchists' when they hosted the 'boston tea party'?

The Russians when they 'offed' the Tsar and Tsarina?

China over the Emperor?

The list goes on ... now what makes what they are doing any different from the above list and any people the world over than the fact they have not been successful enough to topple the incumbent government due to lack of skill funds and backing?

Just tell me why they are unique and what makes them anarchists, please.

Try using your own words because the sites don't have your conviction that they are actually anarchists.


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