Philosophy: Should we eat meat?

rgoudie

When I became a vegetarian in 1996, it was because of ethical reasons; the very same reasons that I have been spouting in this thread. I had effectively boycotted meat because of the obscenities in factory farming. As an aside, I am also enjoying the health benefits, but I am not debating that angle in this thread. Others are doing a fine job of debating this aspect.

OneEye, what would it take for your ethics to be insulted?

-Ray.

derek1

Hi OneEye,

I don't know about the farms in your particular area, but I have been in many factory farms and I have witnessed extreme cruelty. You emphasize the word "factual", seeming to imply that my account is not factual despite the fact that I have provided dozens of photographs and videos of what I have experienced, while you have provided no documentation or evidence whatsoever. I have seen and documented numerous animals thrown away in trash cans or dumpsters left to die a slow death.

I agree that cows don't have it as bad as most of the other animals, since factory farming is less prevalent in the beef industry, but no doubt, they are still abused. They are branded, de-horned, and castrated without painkillers. If this were done to a human, a dog, or a cat, this would be considered torture. Likewise, slaughter can be quite brutal. For example, see this recent investigation at a slaughterhouse:

http://www.goveg.com/feat/agriprocessors/

Numerous other instances of cruelty have been documented including animals being skinned alive as indicated in the Washington Post a few years ago, and documented thorougly in Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz.

And as for pigs, approximately 80 percent are raised in extreme confinement. These are USDA figures from the swine survey they did a while ago...If anything the percentage has increased since then..

Once again, numerous abuses exist in the pork industry as well and have been well documented. I encourage you to visit the Humane Farming Association's website for more info on the cruel treatment of pigs, and its all just the tip of the iceburg.

http://www.hfa.org/campaigns/tribarticle.html


Derek

physicsisphirst

i don't think intermeddling is a problem on this thread, but claiming that loseyourname is arguing factually is. as sheepdog quite correctly points out, all that "if ... then" stuff about "intrinsic worth" and "consequences" is mere abstraction (and not fact). also, the consequents that are being dragged out from the antecedents do not follow (so as you no doubt know, the statement may be 'true', but is meaningless).
please give the thing another look as sheepdog suggests.

ya i know how you feel!
rgoudie, dooga, cogito asked some important questions (one of them to you!) - but no one responded. i asked those same questions on their behalf again (post #951) - no one responded.
i'll respond to your post eventually, if no one else does.

yes these statements are quite correct, but i feel you are missing the point of what rgoudie wrote. the manner in which one party was treated by the other is very similar. the excuses that one party uses to justify what they do have been pretty well documented too.

this is a very strange thing to say (and not just that inaccurate tidbit about humans being omnivores - see post #900 again) - how can the billions of animals that are deliberately and artificially 'grown', be considered as prey in any ecological sense? (rgoudie also questions your statement in post #1037)

that is a very good point (as is your key question "Then what do we want to be?")
i'm a bit surprised you have had to draw it to oneeye's attention though, since in post #784 he stated quite adamantly

My thesis all along has been, "Man cannot be classed with other animals, since man has a unique moral responsibility.

I really find oneeye's recent "If chimpanzees can do it, so can I!" to be somewhat in conflict with his original thesis.

it is really amazing that some people actually consider going to the supermarket to pick up a slab of cellophaned meat as being some ritual that satisfies some supposed ancient predatory urge. interestingly enough, i have talked to more than a few hunters in the past who are repulsed by the supermarket and its factory farmed products. they at least do what they consider their own 'dirty work' and in the wild (what's left of it anyway) instead of drawing the weapon of choice - that plastic debit card (as you say) - and paying into this system that "hoards and exploits entire species".

Be Happy!

OneEye,

I have been following your writings for sometime now, and I must say that I have been pleasantly surprised with your recent sincerity and was very happy to hear that you are concerned about animal cruelty. (sometimes it's hard to tell the individual from the writing on such forums as we are so disconnected from eachother)

Yes, veal crates are horrible...I think most European countries have banned them as well as other factory farming devices such as gestation crates(which keep pregnant pigs confined) and battery cages (where 3-6 hens are stuffed for about 2 years of their miserable lives just to lay eggs!) Europe is certainly ahead of us when it comes to humane treatment of animals and I commend you for not wanting to participate in the cruel treatment of baby cows. It takes action from kind and concerned people like you to make changes- it happened in Europe and it can certainly happen here!

I am glad that the farms near you provide ample space for animals, but the truth remains that over 90% of farmed animals (10+ billion land animals killed in the US alone) are factory farmed! I wish the ranch was more common than it is because at least the animals would have a better life, but that is not the case. The problem is that factory farms are so "efficient" at creating profit that they end up squelching the small farms. There is actually an organization that you might be interested in which is a coalition of small animal farmers who are against factory farming http://www.factoryfarm.org- this is not a vegetarian group by any means, so I think you will be able to relate to their concerns. Also, you might enjoy watching their award winning video called the Meatrix, it's very well done you can watch it at http://www.themeatrix.com/

Anyhow, I visited the websites that derek1 listed: http://www.EggCruelty.com and http://www.MercyForAnimals.org/WeaverBros/overview.asp. I think you might find the pictures enlightening. It's sad, but most of the animals we buy at grocery store come from conditions such as the ones he is working to expose. It's a very admirable effort and if nothing else, i think a conscious consumer is better than an unconscious one.

I'd be very interested in hearing what you think of the links I've provided. I look forward to hearing from you! :)

Sincerely,

Sangeeta

derek1

Here's a quote from one of the largest and most respected group of dieticians in the world:

“Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein, as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.”

--American Dietetic Association, June 2003 position paper


For more info on the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, visit

http://www.ChooseVegetarian.com

OneEye

Ohh, puh-leeeze!

OneEye

Sure, why not?

That may sound flippant, but the fact is that you will have an extraordinarily hard time answering that question.

And it's basically the same question - and founded in the same rationale - as the question, "Should humans eat meat?"

I challenge you to do so.

OneEye

I really don't know why it matters as to how we get our prey.

Some species of ant enslave and milk aphids.

Butcher birds kill many more insects and rodents than they can eat, and store them on a thorn bush.

Crocodile pile up meat in a larder.

Termite mounds are chimpanzee refrigerators.

Skuas raid gull nesting grounds.

Bluejays ruthlessly destroy the eggs of other birds - even if those birds don't compete in the bluejay's niche.

Wake up and smell the nature, will ya?

It seems to be human nature to husband flocks and herds.

So what?

OneEye

My ethics are insulted by some of the farming practices discussed in this forum. But this does not equate to an obligation to vegetarianism.

A variety of reasons as to why this is come to mind, but I would like to ask you a question (and I invite every vegetarian who reads this to respond as well):

If farming methods were reformed, would you then think it ethically acceptable to eat meat?

If not, then you are not basing your vegetarianism on farm cruelty, and so you should stop using that argument - and argue your actual position.

A little clarification, please...

OneEye

...sorry to seem to make that allegation. I was not aiming at you in particular. However, I am scandalized and offended by crusading veggies who constantly make claims with no experiential basis whatsoever - just a lot of web links to veggie sites, with no reference to balancing information.

Take, for instance the infamous:
Were you aware that Agriprocessors is the last large processing company to use the chain-lift method to comply with federal guidelines? Most of the industry has gone to raised cages. Veggies don't find this reform useful, however, so they don't bother to mention that Agriprocessors is using an uncommon and antiquated practice - and that Congress is currently considering legislation to make the tackle-and-lift technique illegal.

So - a serious false emphasis on an uncommon practice.

It's this sort of biased reporting that drives me away from the veggie position.

I wish some veggie crusader would crusade through the veggie world and fight for honest reporting!

OneEye

I'm shocked at you, standing up for that sort of behavior!

"if...then" is an essential rational practice. "intrinsic worth" is an indispensable ground of the ethical question of eating meat.

Just tossing off those questions is intellectual irresponsibilty. And doing so with a cuss word is rude - and in my view, a concession of defeat.
You keep saying this sort of thing, but it's not true. I have answered all of those points - most of them individually, but all of them in my longer post.
The slavery and genocide arguments only work because they were done to humans. This is the substantial difference that you are repeatedly ignoring.
1) You never bothered to research how many of the supposed "herbivorous" traits of humans are also found in chimpanzee physiognomy - and chimps are, undisputedly, omnivores. My guess is that every "herbivorous" trait of humans is also found in chimps - a significant point which completely explodes this nonsense about humans being natural herbivores.
2) You define "prey" as something stalked and pounced on. Why? Humans seem to have a different method of obtaining prey. So?


You are quite right. Just as you do, I am not arguing my actual position. I do not believe that humans are essentially animals - which is why I believe that humans have the right to husband and consume herd animals. My argument targets those (probably the majority on the board) who believe that humans are merely another member of kingdom Animalia.

But either way you cut it, the end result is the same: If humans are a fundamentally different kind of creature than animalia, then it's quite appropriate for them to eat animals - for the same reason that humans may appropriately eat carrots. And, if humans are just another animal, then it's as appropriate for a human to go to the larder to pick up a chunk of meat as it is for a crocodile to do so.

OneEye

I don't mean to spurn your contribution, but I'm not going to do a lot more reading on this. I think that I understand the issue well enough - I know how these things work, and further reading and investigation cannot help my understanding of the matter.

The question that I have for you is the same question I posted above:

If meat were not factory farmed, would it be ethical to eat it?

If not, then the factory farming question has not bearing on this discussion.

If so, then you are free to eat meat - ethically. Just go to one of the many supermarkets that sell free range meat. Vote with your dollars!

OneEye

...yeah, politics is wonderful, ain't it? About as balanced as the APA.

This dogma - though developed in response to real health problems - was just a grasping at a straw. The real culprit in American diets is not animal products, it's sugar, sweeteners, and white flour. Dr. Atkins' work is helping to make this clear.

lilboy

This post is most probably irrelevant.
However I felt the necessity to slap those who are so obsessed with their "superiority complex" - that humans are the only ones conscious, capable of feelings and emotions.
The link below is dedicated to those who are still incapable of understanding animal consciousness.

Dog Rescues 7-Year-Old in India
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/sto...85.htm&sc=1104

sheepdog

Are you asking (I query, incredulous) why should we not practice the sexual practices of chimpanzees, and why should my wife not agree to such practices? Is that really the question?

This is not some stupid game we are playing. Life is not just some stupid game, you know. This is for real. No redos. No instant replays.

Of course I do not want to behave sexually as a chimpanzee. And I know for sure that my wife would not want me to do so either. That is the answer. Because I do not want to. I choose not to. I could. But it is obvious to me that the consequences would not be to my liking. So I choose not to.

But you do. Ok, fine. You are certainly correct that there are direct parallels between this question and eating meat. I choose to not behave sexually as a chimpanzee because of the consequences. You choose to do so. Fine. Let the consequences follow. Whether your practices or mine prevail will determine the condition of life for all future generations.

This is precisely why I do not eat meat. Were I to eat meat I would be placing myself in the category of those who do not even have the sense to behave sexually better than a chimpanzee. Now why would anyone want to associate themselves with such as that?

sheepdog

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I put it to you that it is not for vegetarians to justify our diet, but it is for the meat eaters to justify meat eating. And I further put it to you that anyone who has a choice about his diet and chooses to eat meat can only justify it with reasons all of which fall into one category, the "Because I want to screw like a chimp" category. Look:

• "Because I want to (and I want to screw like a chimp)"
• "Because it tastes good (and it feels good to screw like a chimp)"
• "Because my ancestors ate meat (and they were chimps and I want to screw like a chimp)"
• "Because it's natural (and chimps naturally screw a lot and I want to screw like a chimp)"

And if someone insists that you tell them why you do not eat meat, it is enough to say, "Because I do NOT want to screw like a chimp. We can do better than that."

A simple, clear, ethical choice. And therein lies the paradigm shift.

Seafang

Well the cited articles don't prove MAN is not omnivorous. Cows are not carnivorous; yet if they happen to chomp a fly or grasshopper that is sitting on that last bunch of grass they grabbed, it will certainly provide them with food energy. Likewise dogs are not herbivores, at least not in the wild they are not. I haven't ever seen a coyote climb a tree to eat an apple or orange from my yard, but they certainly do eat the birds, and lizards and ground squirrels and anything else zoological they can catch.

But neither cows nor dogs are omnivores, although humans have invested a lot of effort in trying to convince dogs to eat soy products and other plant materials. But don't ever give them a choice of plant of meat and expect them to choose the plant.

No other living species is as omnivorous as humans. We literally eat anything that does not poison us, and even some things that do such as certain mushrooms and fugu.

Our ability to eat such a great range of foods, whether our digestive tract is optimised for it or not is one reason we rose to dominance in the animal kingdom.

Vegetarianism or Vegan (I thought that was witchcraft) is a life style choice; just like some other socially weird lifestyle choices. My niece chooses to be a vegetarian, because her husband has several major food allergy problems that relate to certain specifically animal food products. He is not by choice opposed to eating zoo-food, it is just safer for him when dining out to be a vegetarian so she accommodates him in their joint lifestyle. Yes she does also have a concern for eating Bambi, but it is her husband's medical problem that primarily motivates her. So the family has to accommodate them whenever we meet for the holiday season festivities. They don't complain when the rest of us chow down on the ham and turkey or fish.

Since mother nature makes ALL food for ALL species, out of plain rocks and water and solar energy, there is no fundamental reason why we couldn't do the same. Then vegans wouldn't have to ask themselves whether the apple tree screams when they tear one of its children from the nursery and devours it without a thought for the grieving parent tree.