What Caused the Rapid Cooling 12700 Years Ago in Western Europe?

[wolram]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080801152137.htm

ScienceDaily (Aug. 4, 2008) — Researchers in Germany, Switzerland, and the United States have shown, for the first time, that an extremely fast climate change occurred in Western Europe. This took place long before human-made changes in the atmosphere, and is causatively associated with a sudden change in the wind systems.

Now that is frightening.

 

[mgb_phys]

Wasn't the ice retreating in europe 12,700 BP? I thought the maximum extent for the Wisconsin/Wurm ice age was about 20,000BP.

It's been thought for a while that ice ages can start very quickly, but I didn't realize it was down to a few years!

 

[Andre]

Please notice the cooling element.

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v1/n8/abs/ngeo263.html;jsessionid=EA133DF26FE196FEA5878D482529A909

This is extremely important. Achim Brauer published 3 earlier articles about the Meerfelder maar, the most outstanding high resolution record for the Younger Dryas, Pollen analysis shows a quick and distinct shift from abundant boreal forest type to arid steppe around 12,680 "varve" years BP. But "cold" is not reflected in the plant species. In the previous article, Lücke and Brauer 2004, mention "warmer summers". See:

http://earth.myfastforum.org/about18.html[/URL]

Considering that 12,700 true calendar years is just about 10,700 radio carbon (14C) years ago, compare that with:

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003NE/finalprogram/abstract_49483.htm

[quote]...Two very significant climatic [b]warming events[/b] (centered around 12,400 14C yr BP and [b]~10,700 14C yr BP[/b] respectively) correspond with the observed major changes in diatom assemblages...[/quote]

Hence That cooling is highly ambigeous

 

[Integral]

Not sure of my sources on this as it has been some years since I read it. Have they not found Mammoths with nearly intact vegetation in their digestive system. The understanding that I came away with was that the living animal had to have been nearly flash frozen to explain the state of preservation. The remains were found in what is now the Arctic region, the digestive system contends where more in line with a moderate climate. the explanation offered was that there could have been a shift in the Earth angle of tilt. I believe that the time scale on this would have been in the neighborhood of 12000yrs ago. The effects of such a dramatic change would vary, some regions would move from moderate to cold, in other areas you would see the opposite change, from cold to warm.

Such a change would have to be caused by gravitational interaction with a fairly massive body. 1200yrs seems a little late for such a interaction.

 

[DEMcMillan]

Brian Fagan, the retired archeologist has produced a series of books on weather discerned from the archeologic record, including food and migration patterns. I believe his work about this time period should prove useful in answering some of the questions raised.

 

[wolram]

Here is a nice piece about the mamouths

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mammoths.html

 

[nucleus]

In Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada they have the Beringia Interpretive Centre which I went through a couple years ago. It has woolly mammoths and other animals on display. You can take a virtual tour etc here:

http://www.beringia.com/01/01index.html

 

[Andre]

You guys picked a wrong time to discuss mammoths. There are no "flash frozen" mammoths, just peat preserved mummies of mammoths including complete stomach contents. The Yukagir mammoth has been analysed in detail again with the same result: productive grassy steppe.

 

[jim mcnamara]

The Younger Dryas manifests in the Chesapeake Bay region in the Eastern US as a ~.5 - 3m aeolian layer deposited over a period of ~800 years. It was very dry in that area with a lot of blown dust - obviously - during that time. The onset was abrupt, based on pollen analysis.

One hypothesis for the cooler dryer phase was that the St Lawrence River became ice free, and really massive fresh water flows caused thermohaline flow shutdown.

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/pi/arch/examples.shtml

 

[Andre]

One hypothesis for the cooler dryer phase was that the St Lawrence River became ice free, and really massive fresh water flows caused thermohaline flow shutdown.

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/pi/arch/examples.shtml

That hypothesis is not supported by any evidence: see

http://cgrg.geog.uvic.ca/abstracts/LowellTestingMeltwater.html

It's also a bit unclear/counter intuitive how a relative (earth scale) minor hydrographic event could have such an impact allmost world wide, including oceanic proxies in the Pacific.

 

[jim mcnamara]

What you show is another hypothesis, clearly: Does this article constitute "any" evidence?

Broecker, WS., Does the trigger for abrupt climate change reside in the oceans or in the atmosphere? Science 300 (5625): 1519-1522 JUN 6 2003.

Abstract:
Two hypotheses have been put forward to explain the large and abrupt climate changes that punctuated glacial time. One attributes such changes to reorganizations of the ocean's thermohaline circulation and the other to changes in tropical atmosphere-ocean dynamics. In an attempt to distinguish between these hypotheses, two lines of evidence are examined. The first involves the timing of the freshwater injections to the northern Atlantic that have been suggested as triggers for the global impacts associated with the Younger Dryas and Heinrich events. The second has to do with evidence for precursory events associated with the Heinrich ice-rafted debris layers in the northern Atlantic and with the abrupt Dansgaard-Oeschger warmings recorded in the Santa Barbara Basin.

 

[Andre]

What you show is another hypothesis,

Dunno, they sought supper for the melt water hypothesis but didn't find any:
The EOS article:
http://www.eeescience.utoledo.edu/Faculty/Fisher/Lowell_etal_EOS05.pdf

Preliminary results indicate that ice recession at both outlet areas is later than supposed, and that large volumes of meltwater were not catastrophically released from Lake Agassiz at the beginning of the Younger Dryas

clearly: Does this article constitute "any" evidence?

Currently no access to the article, but I would not take any conclusions before checking all the evidence and that's a few decades worth of work.

See also:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=242912
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=209528

 

[Mammo]

Not sure of my sources on this as it has been some years since I read it. Have they not found Mammoths with nearly intact vegetation in their digestive system. The understanding that I came away with was that the living animal had to have been nearly flash frozen to explain the state of preservation. The remains were found in what is now the Arctic region, the digestive system contends where more in line with a moderate climate. the explanation offered was that there could have been a shift in the Earth angle of tilt. I believe that the time scale on this would have been in the neighborhood of 12000yrs ago. The effects of such a dramatic change would vary, some regions would move from moderate to cold, in other areas you would see the opposite change, from cold to warm.

Such a change would have to be caused by gravitational interaction with a fairly massive body. 1200yrs seems a little late for such a interaction.

The mammoths found preserved in standing positions with grasses and buttercups still in their mouths also had penile erections. The simple solution is that they were instantly suffocated by being engulfed in peat or soil and later frozen. An intense earthquake can cause liquefaction of the ground, and the weight of the mammoths would cause them to sink. The dating of the mammoths concerned is more in the order of 40,000 years ago.

You guys picked a wrong time to discuss mammoths. There are no "flash frozen" mammoths, just peat preserved mummies of mammoths including complete stomach contents. The Yukagir mammoth has been analysed in detail again with the same result: productive grassy steppe.

You are distorting the evidence to fit your own ideas, I believe.

 

[Andre]

You are distorting the evidence to fit your own ideas, I believe.

Better be very very careful with accusations like that . I actually participated a bit indirectly in the research around the Yugakir mammoth, discussed things directly with the men with hands on experience and provided plenty of supporting evidence for that. I also think it would be required to substantiate the flash freezing tale.

See for instance http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WPN-4S563X9-1&_user=10&_coverDate=05%2F31%2F2008&_alid=857302610&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=6995&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=8&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=7d20f5b3b5350cd600648d86a95d1772 and http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VGS-4G6J891-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2006&_alid=857302610&_rdoc=6&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=6046&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=8&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2e173acd1e97be7222f9ffc8d7de103e, with an elaborate abstract http://www.yukonmuseums.ca/mammoth/abstrmol-mor.htm .

Also mind that these mummies had to survive the Holocene thermal optimum when Siberia was several degrees warmer than today.

 

[Mammo]

Better be very very careful with accusations like that . I actually participated a bit indirectly in the research around the Yugakir mammoth, discussed things directly with the men with hands on experience and provided plenty of supporting evidence for that. I also think it would be required to substantiate the flash freezing tale.

I didn't intend to make you mad Andre. Let's have a logical level-headed debate about the issue. Professor of zoology at the University of Alaska, R. Dale Guthrie, who lives above 60'N has this to say about the preservation of intact whole bodies in freezing temperatures (see attachments):

This smelly exercise taught me several lessons about neighborly relations and decomposition. An unopened animal continues to decompose after a fresh kill, even at very cold temperatures, because the thermal inertia of its body is sufficient to sustain microbial and enzyme activity as long as the carcass is completely covered with an insulating pelt and the torso remains intact.

Taken from his book 'Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppe: The Story of Blue Babe'.

BTW I didn't take issue with the 'flash freezing' question, it was the way you dismiss the evidence of an unusual event. You said "just peat preserved mummies", but I disagree. This doesn't fit with the details given by Guthrie.

 

[Mammo]

Here are a few interesting pages from Guthrie's book. There are many more cases like this, including other large fauna such as the Selerikan Pony and the Churapachi Woolly Rhino. It's a fascinating read which I highly recommend if you are interested in this debate.

 

[Gokul43201]

The mammoths found preserved in standing positions with grasses and buttercups still in their mouths also had penile erections. The simple solution is that they were instantly suffocated by being engulfed in peat or soil and later frozen. An intense earthquake can cause liquefaction of the ground, and the weight of the mammoths would cause them to sink. The dating of the mammoths concerned is more in the order of 40,000 years ago.

These statements still need some kind of reference to support them.

 

[Mammo]

These statements still need some kind of reference to support them.

My reference is the book 'Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppe: The Story of Blue Babe' by R. Dale Guthrie, professor of zoology at the University of Alaska.

Dima is perhaps the best preserved specimen of all the frozen large mammal carcasses found in the far north. It had not been scavenged, so the carcass was intact, and very little decomposition had taken place before the body was frozen..The high quality of the tissue preservation is itself unusual and indicates that the body cooled rapidly after death and was not subsequently exposed to long episodes of warm temperatures. The degree of completeness of the carcass is also unusual. Because there was no signs of scavenging by avian or mammalian carnivores, the carcass probably was not exposed to scavengers for any length of time..Soviet laboratory tests on the mummy's tissue gave dates in the range of 40,000 yr B.P.

Khatanga mammoth.

However, the presence of some of the vulnerable soft parts suggests that these parts were buried in cool soil not long before freeze-up in the late summer or autumn, as they probably did not stay exposed unfrozen in the open for long.

Shandrin mammoth.

..one radiocarbon date was about 42,000 B.P..

Selerikan Pony.

This mummy, a mature stallion, was carefully studied..Radiocarbon dates on the carcass range from 35,000 to 39,000 B.P.

(found in an upright position similar to Berezovka mammoth)

There is plenty more data given in the book. The evidence clearly suggests the potential for an unusual set of events.

 

[Andre]

The only known 'complete' mummies are babies, blue babe, Dima and the recently found one:

I believe that thermal inertia is related to the third power of the body size, so that's not comparable with adult versions, for instance the Jarkov and the Yukagir mammoths of which there are only parts mummified. The Yukagir only the head, part of the back, intestines and a foreleg. From the contents of the guts it is know that it died in springtime, so it had a complete summer to decompose. A mammoth head is mostly hollow with a sort of honeycomb construction and it contains relatively little soft tissues hence the chance of it's preservation is better than body parts.

Also consider why most mummies are mammoths and not the equally abundant horses, bison, antilopes etc, if there was this sudden freezing, wouldn't those have an equal chance on mummification?

As far as I know mammoth mummies are associated with near by water or remains of water fauna (Jarkov). So it could be speculated that it has to do with mummification as the cavities in the skull may fill up quickly after drowing, providing effetive cooling. The Yukagir head cavities are completely filled with mud.

The fantastic tales of the older mammoth mummies in the nineteenth century cannot be duplicated and peer reviewed.

Time is up, more to follow later.

 

[Mammo]

The only known 'complete' mummies are babies, blue babe, Dima and the recently found one:

I believe that thermal inertia is related to the third power of the body size, so that's not comparable with adult versions, for instance the Jarkov and the Yukagir mammoths of which there are only parts mummified. The Yukagir only the head, part of the back, intestines and a foreleg. From the contents of the guts it is know that it died in springtime, so it had a complete summer to decompose. A mammoth head is mostly hollow with a sort of honeycomb construction and it contains relatively little soft tissues hence the chance of it's preservation is better than body parts.

Do you have any links or references for these statements?

Also consider why most mummies are mammoths and not the equally abundant horses, bison, antilopes etc, if there was this sudden freezing, wouldn't those have an equal chance on mummification?

There isn't enough cases for a statistical analysis, surely? BTW you keep referring to a "sudden freezing". It is also the nature of (sudden) complete burial of large fauna in their prime which is unusual, e.g the Selerikan stallion. This doesn't happen in real life, it is usually the yound or old which are unable to free themselves.

As far as I know mammoth mummies are associated with near by water or remains of water fauna (Jarkov). So it could be speculated that it has to do with mummification as the cavities in the skull may fill up quickly after drowing, providing effetive cooling. The Yukagir head cavities are completely filled with mud.

It could also be speculated that the association with water locations is indicative of deep silty mud deposits. This would fit with the liquefaction due to earthquake idea. Also note that flowing mud is by definition above 0'C. It wouldn't provide effective cooling against decomposition.

The fantastic tales of the older mammoth mummies in the nineteenth century cannot be duplicated and peer reviewed.

The professional research has been done by a professor of zoology around the 1980's.

Interestingly Andre, you do seem to agree with Guthrie's Mammoth Steppe hypothesis (which I do myself). This is where Berengia is speculated to have supported a permanent population of large fauna due to a grassland habitat resulting from increased aridity. He also illustrates the extent of the North American icesheets. Do you disagree with this as well?

 

[Andre]

You're moving quite some goal posts around. I'm talking to the man with the hair dryer of the Jarkv mammoth: http://www.amqua.org/news/quaternarytimes/v29n2/jarkov_mammoth.htm and I translated the book about the Yukagir Mammoth, which was only produced in Japanese later because of the Expo in which every piece of the corpse was described.

Alternately any substantiation for any complete mummy of an adult mammoths?

 

[Mammo]

Alternately any substantiation for any complete mummy of an adult mammoths?

It is the instant death by suffocation which is of primary importance, not whether any parts of the carcass were scavenged or not.

 

[Andre]

It is the instant death by suffocation which is of primary importance, not whether any parts of the carcass were scavenged or not.

No we are looking for a complete adult mummy. Also for this to happen scavanging is not the only factor, the complete carcas should be covered and note that this is not going to happen in quicksand, or by liquefaction due to earthquakes, due to the relative buoyancy

 

[Mammo]

No we are looking for a complete adult mummy. Also for this to happen scavanging is not the only factor, the complete carcas should be covered and note that this is not going to happen in quicksand, or by liquefaction due to earthquakes, due to the relative buoyancy

I don't buy this argument. A struggling animal will encourage it to sink when trapped in liquefied silt or soil. Let's agree to disagree on the frozen fauna debate. There's another area of contention which is more clear-cut. In thread 'Happy Perihelion' you were debating with Xnn about the ice sheets of North America and the northern hemisphere Happy Perihelion, post #26

Originally Posted by Xnn:

The extent of NH glaciation between 20 to 50ka was much more extensive than it is now.

Andre:

Would you have any direct evidence for that? Note that using the isotope stages is a begging the question fallacy, the same hypothesis is not proof for the hypothesis. So far we have only found areas which were not glaciated.

The attachments show that Professor Guthrie gives solid evidence to support the widely held view of extensive glaciation which separated the north and south of the American continent from migration. Mammal groups were squeezed into two types; Pikas, northern ground squirrels and mountain sheep distributions are shown.

 

[Andre]

I don't buy this argument.

Physics! Archimedes law. The soil is much denser than the animal and it will mostly float A person can't sink deeper into the quicksand than to about the waist, until the weight of the displaced fluids (and soil) is equal in weight to the body. Sinking completely into the quicksand is a movie myth. But it might be a possible reason why we find only partly mummified adult specimens.

 

[Andre]

The attachments show that Professor Guthrie gives solid evidence to support the widely held view of extensive glaciation which separated the north and south of the American continent from migration. Mammal groups were squeezed into two types; Pikas, northern ground squirrels and mountain sheep distributions are shown.

You are using a hypothesis as evidence. I think I provided some ample evidence that there were some places not glaciated before the the Last Glacial Maximum.

 

[Mammo]

You are using a hypothesis as evidence. I think I provided some ample evidence that there were some places not glaciated before the the Last Glacial Maximum.

The data is the evidence.

 

[Gokul43201]

I don't buy this argument. A struggling animal will encourage it to sink when trapped in liquefied silt or soil.

This part is not true. Struggling will only help the animal get to the equilibrium level of immersion faster; it will not change the equilibrium position. That is determined purely by the densities of the elephant and the quicksand. And unless elephants are significantly more dense than human beings (which I doubt), they will probably only sink till about half their body volume is submerged.

 

[Gokul43201]

You are using a hypothesis as evidence.

I don't follow this. The hypothesis is the extent of glaciation. The evidence supporting this hypothesis is the geographical separation of northern and southern "forms" of species.

 

[Mammo]

Not sure of my sources on this as it has been some years since I read it. Have they not found Mammoths with nearly intact vegetation in their digestive system. The understanding that I came away with was that the living animal had to have been nearly flash frozen to explain the state of preservation. The remains were found in what is now the Arctic region, the digestive system contends where more in line with a moderate climate. the explanation offered was that there could have been a shift in the Earth angle of tilt. I believe that the time scale on this would have been in the neighborhood of 12000yrs ago. The effects of such a dramatic change would vary, some regions would move from moderate to cold, in other areas you would see the opposite change, from cold to warm.

Such a change would have to be caused by gravitational interaction with a fairly massive body. 1200yrs seems a little late for such a interaction.

The gravitational attraction of a fairly massive body could also cause an uplift of the landmass as well as liquefaction of the soil.

This part is not true. Struggling will only help the animal get to the equilibrium level of immersion faster; it will not change the equilibrium position. That is determined purely by the densities of the elephant and the quicksand. And unless elephants are significantly more dense than human beings (which I doubt), they will probably only sink till about half their body volume is submerged.

The hypothesis given by Integral above of a near-miss by a massive body could potentially cause an uplift of the landmass. I propose that this effect would overcome the natural bouyancy of a trapped animal. The idea has the added possibility of being able to explain the 'quick freeze' due to the entering into very low air temperatures of a higher arctic altitude. Maybe a very unusual suite of evidence requires a very unusual set of events as an explanation?

 

[Mammo]

There's another area of contention which is more clear-cut. In thread 'Happy Perihelion' you were debating with Xnn about the ice sheets of North America and the northern hemisphere Happy Perihelion, post #26

Further evidence of extensive North American glaciation is given in Imbrie and Imbrie's book 'Ice Ages : Solving the Mystery'. Glacial till deposits are an excellent indicator of the extent of the ice sheets.

 

[Andre]

Further evidence of extensive North American glaciation is given in Imbrie and Imbrie's book 'Ice Ages : Solving the Mystery'. Glacial till deposits are an excellent indicator of the extent of the ice sheets.

And what do you see in reality, reading actually what it says? Confusion and conflict and Imbrie & Imbrie had not even begin to think about possible dating calibration problems with 14C dating, which lead to huge differences in the 20 ka bracked.

 

[Mammo]

And what do you see in reality, reading actually what it says? Confusion and conflict and Imbrie & Imbrie had not even begin to think about possible dating calibration problems with 14C dating, which lead to huge differences in the 20 ka bracked.

No, the confusion was the realisation that there are warm interstadials during a glacial period. This was evidenced by the advance and retreat of the ice sheets.

I think that you have a valid case in showing that the Eurasian icesheet is now believed to be a lot less extensive than initially assumed. But this has a reasonable explanation - a low rate of precipitation. What is the reason why there wouldn't have been extensive glaciation of the North American continent?

 

[Andre]

No, the confusion was the realisation that there are warm interstadials during a glacial period. This was evidenced by the advance and retreat of the ice sheets.

I think that you have a valid case in showing that the Eurasian icesheet is now believed to be a lot less extensive than initially assumed. But this has a reasonable explanation - a low rate of precipitation. What is the reason why there wouldn't have been extensive glaciation of the North American continent?

We are running around in circles. As I have shown over and over again, the paleo zoological evidence in Siberia massively points to warm conditions just prior to the last glacial maximum, in the assumed period of the advancing ice sheets in America but as advancing ice sheet kill evidence where they flow, the only valid evidence is likely the dating of maximum extent but there is no way to know how long the sheet was at that maximum. Moreover it would be pretty interesting to see an explanation for a big ice sheet on America some 24,700 calendar years ago, when the http://www.yukonmuseums.ca/mammoth/abstrmol-mor.htm

 

[Mammo]

We are running around in circles. As I have shown over and over again, the paleo zoological evidence in Siberia massively points to warm conditions just prior to the last glacial maximum, in the assumed period of the advancing ice sheets in America but as advancing ice sheet kill evidence where they flow, the only valid evidence is likely the dating of maximum extent but there is no way to know how long the sheet was at that maximum. Moreover it would be pretty interesting to see an explanation for a big ice sheet on America some 24,700 calendar years ago, when the http://www.yukonmuseums.ca/mammoth/abstrmol-mor.htm

Professor Guthrie talks about the advance of the treeline during interstadials in his book. This is the real anomaly which needs understanding with a full explanation. The insolation due to orbital mechanics is symmetric and calculable. So why are there large periods of warm weather during a glacial period? This is the question.