Why can't we move on from 9/11?

[GENIERE]

Last evening, at midnight, I was going to post a reminder re: 9/11. I decide to wait, as I was sure others would post. Saddened is too weak a term to describe my feelings. We are at war with about 150 million worshipers of Islam who actively participate or abet a small group of despicable, indescribable malevolent, bipeds. These minions are in turn supported by millions of their apologists. What a f***** up world!

 

[member 5645]

Why don't you go ahead and start?

 

[tumor]

Last evening, at midnight, I was going to post a reminder re: 9/11. I decide to wait, as I was sure others would post. Saddened is too weak a term to describe my feelings. We are at war with about 150 million worshipers of Islam who actively participate or abet a small group of despicable, indescribable malevolent, bipeds. These minions are in turn supported by millions of their apologists. What a f***** up world!

Stop smearing muslims again!

 

[russ_watters]

Stop smearing muslims again!

Geniere's complaint, which I share, is that peaceful muslims are doing little to nothing to stop the terrorists who are hijacking their religion. Why don't they take control of their religion, politics, etc? See studentx's thread.

 

[ray b]

150 million?, NO a few thousad nut case belivers
opposed by our nut case belivers christian and jewish extremists

maybe a better idea is a war on all fairy tales
or at least the active dangerios ones
not on the people ,
just on the stupid MYTHS they belive

if we can show them there is no GOD,
there is no reason for terror or war in god's name
and any theocracy is a very BAD IDEA in the holy land or the HOMELAND
or anywhere

best first step is get the christian rightwing out of office
that we can do without bloodshed
then quit paying for the Zionists theocracy with USA TAX MONY
next work on the moslems

 

[Adam]

Geniere's complaint, which I share, is that peaceful muslims are doing little to nothing to stop the terrorists who are hijacking their religion. Why don't they take control of their religion, politics, etc? See studentx's thread.

What are you doing to stop Bush's Whitehouse prayer meetings? Or Jerry Falwell's crazy campaigns?

 

[studentx]

evading the problem again.

 

[Dissident Dan]

Geniere's complaint, which I share, is that peaceful muslims are doing little to nothing to stop the terrorists who are hijacking their religion. Why don't they take control of their religion, politics, etc? See studentx's thread.

Johnny's complaint, which I share, is that peaceful Westerners are doing little to nothing to stop the WTO and multinational corporations that are destroying environmental, public health, and labor laws, undermining local economies, and expropriating the natural resources in poorer nations. Why don't they take control of their economics, politics, etc?

 

[Mercator]

I think on this day it would be approriate for all in the free world to stand up together with Americans. Mourn, shout with rage or whatever you feel. If on this kind of occasion one is not able to put aside differences on the side issues, one is indeed an apologist. When 911 happened, I donated to the red cross. A feeble gesture, I know, but since then I supported every action to make do with the very source of this evil. Unfortunately Iraq was not one of them, as it completely undermined the moral high ground as well as the political and even military strenght of the US, and thus of the free world. Radicalization of Islam is no fairy tale. It's too easy to blame the whole of Islam, but it is obvious they have a big problem. Together with the Americans I will defend our freedom by all means. 911 is a day to let the world know just that. And let nobody think that while we have fierce discussions among us, that we don't agree about the principle.

 

[russ_watters]

What are you doing to stop Bush's Whitehouse prayer meetings? Or Jerry Falwell's crazy campaigns?

Neither Bush nor Jerry Falwell is strapping bombs on children and sending them to bus stations or hijacking civilian airliners and flying them into bus stations, or murdering hundreds of children and their parents in a school.

Johnny's complaint, which I share, is that peaceful Westerners are doing little to nothing to stop the WTO and multinational corporations that are destroying environmental, public health, and labor laws, undermining local economies, and expropriating the natural resources in poorer nations. Why don't they take control of their economics, politics, etc?

You're comparing economics to terrorism? Are you of the perception that the economic prosperity of the west in the past hundred or so years has made things worse for non-western countries?

 

[GENIERE]

I think on this day it would be approriate for all in the free world to stand up together with Americans...

Mercator, in this political forum, I don’t think you have ever posted anything I’ve agreed with.

I can’t thank you enough for this one.

 

[Gokul43201]

Geniere's complaint, which I share, is that peaceful muslims are doing little to nothing to stop the terrorists who are hijacking their religion. Why don't they take control of their religion, politics, etc? See studentx's thread.

That's not what he said russ. He said they "actively support" the terrorists.

And how exactly does a common Muslim person who perhaps works in a little shop 12 hours a day; who just barely makes enough money to feed his 5 children and 2 wives, supposed to "stop the terrorists who are hijacking" his religion ?

Are Religious Muslim groups that command public attention doing enough to condemn the terrorists ? NO ! Are Islamic Goverments doing enough to eradicate terror cells operating under their noses ? No way ! Are there common people who do sympathise with Al Qaeda ? Yes, there are.

But going so far as to blame every Taamir, Dawoud and Hamid is one angry step too many. It's this kind of generalization that leads to acts of ethnic cleansing.

 

[GENIERE]

If I had meant every Taamir, Dawoud and Hamid I would have stated 1.3 billion rather than 150 million.

 

[Gokul43201]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the combined populations of Iraq and Afghanistan, but that's actually more like 50 mill.

 

[GENIERE]

Sorry...

My hand is extended. Sorry, no right-handed icons.

--

 

[Mercator]

Mercator, in this political forum, I don’t think you have ever posted anything I’ve agreed with.

I can’t thank you enough for this one.

Geniere, in discussions like this, positions tend to be polarized in stead of growing towards each other. I am guilty of overdoing it in the heat of discussion, like so many here. It all ends, like I found out on another board on which I was more active the last few months, in useless shouting and insulting. It does not hurt to restate one's basic viewpoints now and then, if not to clarify a position for the others, then to refocus yourself.

 

[studentx]

i forgive u merc

 

[member 5645]

And let nobody think that while we have fierce discussions among us, that we don't agree about the principle.

that's a good thought

 

[Gokul43201]

My hand is extended. Sorry, no right-handed icons.

--

No problem, I'll use a mirror.

 

[Mercator]

This starts to sound like a self-help group :-) We need some controversy quick!

 

[Gokul43201]

Here's one :

There are several countries all over the world that lose hundreds of lives each year to terrorism, civil strife, and maniacal despots.

Can we designate one day of the year for each of them, so they too will be thought about ?

We, living relatively happily in America, can't nearly fathom the true meaning of the word 'hardship', as experienced by many of these unfortunate folk.

I'm reminded of this incident before the NCAA College Basketball Final Game (U Conn vs G Tech) this year. A sidelines reporter asked Emeka Okafor (MVP) how nervous he was, going into the game. Emeka answered that he was pretty nervous alright, but compared to what he had to live through in Nigeria on a daily basis, this was a walk in the park.

 

[Mercator]

Gokul, the world had and has many local conflicts, whereby the parties call their opponents terrorists. The IRA, the ETA, African and Asian warlords, all of them commit despicable acts, mostly because of issues of control and power. But rarely did a terrorist action like 9/11 occur, where terrorists fly around the globe to another country to terrorize the people there , not for local control, but for changing the world order. THAT is in my eyes the difference with other forms of terrorism, genocide etc... So it comes down to the question: which "order" do you prefer in the world? That being said, the free world should be very carefull not to spill it's resources for wrong causes. In the case of Iraq, the effect is that extremism has another new cause and recruiting ground. In my eyes, we should have focused longer on Afghanistan and Mr. Laden. And I am realist enough to understand the attitude towards Saudi and Pak, but some guys there sponsored Al Queda and proliferated nuclear arms. Today they are treated much too nicely.

 

[Gokul43201]

Gokul, the world had and has many local conflicts, whereby the parties call their opponents terrorists. The IRA, the ETA, African and Asian warlords, all of them commit despicable acts, mostly because of issues of control and power. But rarely did a terrorist action like 9/11 occur, where terrorists fly around the globe to another country to terrorize the people there , not for local control, but for changing the world order.

Very true. But I think 9/11 was more an act of revenge and hatred (something of a crusade) directed at one specific government than out of a desire to change the world order.

I agree too much with the rest...so I'll stop here.

 

[Mercator]

Very true. But I think 9/11 was more an act of revenge and hatred (something of a crusade) directed at one specific government than out of a desire to change the world order.

I don't think so. Bali and Madrid bombings, several arrests in other European countries... And, I guess, it was not a coincident that the WORLD TRADE centre was targeted.

 

[Gokul43201]

I think the repurcussions of 9/11 were global, and al-Qaeda capitalized on this. I don't believe 9/11 was part of a worldwide terror plan. The Madrid bombings happened only because Spain was a participant in the Iraq War. I'm not denying that al-Qaeda has a global network, but I don't think they foresaw that 9/11 would affect the whole world.

 

[JasonRox]

I'm not a fan of the WTO.

Under the NAFTA agreement, the Americans(government and the people who support it) ****ed us over BAD!

I'm a Canadian, and I dislike the idea that we will get sucked down with the US who isn't taking the best approach.

This is my opinion, but I think a corporate owned country will always get hit. If I were an American citizen, I wouldn't be afraid because they will only hit government related building. Staying away from those.

Other than that, it is sad to see a country being controlled by fear. i.e. Bush's Campaign

Note: Kerry doesn't look too bright either. I'm with Clinton.

 

[member 5645]

Very true. But I think 9/11 was more an act of revenge and hatred (something of a crusade) directed at one specific government than out of a desire to change the world order.

I watched a statement on the news tonight by OBL back in 2002 (?) calling for All Americans to convert to Islam. I tried to find a link, as this was on CNN Television, but I couldn't.
However, I find that very telling about the true goals. It's a want to spread Islam. If you are not Muslim, you are an infidel. If you are not Osama's type of muslim, you're not a REAL muslim either
EDIT yes I'm simplifying this, but it's still a very telling statement

 

[member 5645]

I'm not a fan of the WTO.

Under the NAFTA agreement, the Americans(government and the people who support it) ****ed us over BAD!

I'm a Canadian, and I dislike the idea that we will get sucked down with the US who isn't taking the best approach.

This is my opinion, but I think a corporate owned country will always get hit. If I were an American citizen, I wouldn't be afraid because they will only hit government related building. Staying away from those.

Other than that, it is sad to see a country being controlled by fear. i.e. Bush's Campaign

Note: Kerry doesn't look too bright either. I'm with Clinton.

Let's not change course. I'm not sure how NAFTA came to this. i'd be happy to discuss it in another thread.

All countries have enemies, unless you are so lucky to have vast resources and call yourself neutral (and even then, are pipe bombs in Downtown T-dot considered getting hit??) and thus all countries will get 'hit'. Communist countries have terrorism. Do you believe they are corporate owned? Obviously not ;)

Considering the high number of travelers on the 11th, and the constant polls showing that Americans aren't worried about another terrorist attack, I don't know where you get the idea we are controlled by fear. Election time propaganda slides off our back like water off a duck. Sure it gets a few percent (that's all either side needs), but to say fear is controlling a nation is to believe the same propaganda given out by the likes of Michael Moore (and company).

 

[kat]

I think the repurcussions of 9/11 were global, and al-Qaeda capitalized on this. I don't believe 9/11 was part of a worldwide terror plan. The Madrid bombings happened only because Spain was a participant in the Iraq War. I'm not denying that al-Qaeda has a global network, but I don't think they foresaw that 9/11 would affect the whole world.

Wasn't there some discovery that they had been planning the Madrid attack before Iraq?
I think that a lot of people forget Spains religious history and how islamic fundamentalist feel about it...

 

[JasonRox]

I never seen any of Michael Moore's work, so I wouldn't know the likes either.

I already know that the economy in the US is ****, and that's no big surprise considering Americans love to swipe credit cards, which made it look like it went "up".

When the bills start coming, your ****ed.

We will see how much Bush loves paying bills.

Believe it or not, I'm already considering leaving Canada itself. With a good majority of the votes going to Plastic Face Harper, there is no way I can live in a country full of wackos voting for anyone because of a silly mistake made by one government.

Where am I going to go? I haven't decided it yet, but I'm working on it. Any suggestions? Note: US is at the bottom, so don't recommend it.

Yes we live great lives, and there is no doubt about it. I'm just not too fond about living in a environmentally ignorant country such as the US and Canada although Canada isn't that bad.

I do love my country, don't get me wrong. It's the people sending it in the wrong the direction. I don't give a rats ass about how many Olympic Medals we win because I think it is a waste of money for it to go there. Every other Canadian wants more medals, for some damn stupid reason, but they are reluctant to pay for it though. They like to pile up debt, like our US counterparts, and let the next generation suffer.

Believe or not, a lot of Canadian just like to win the hockey gold, but most rather see the Toronto Maple Leafs win the Stanley Cup.

Note: I'm a huge Leafs fan, and um... I am willing to pay more taxes to increase their chance of winning. I'm sure a lot of Canadians would. :)

HOCKEY NATION!

 

[plover]

My understanding is that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed chose the WTC as a symbol of U.S. economic power—Bin Laden's preferred target being the Pentagon.

Also, Mohammed's participation in 9/11 was more directly inspired by hatred of the U.S. caused by the Palestinian issue. Bin Laden's goal was more strategic. His overall aim is to bring about a reunification of the Islamic world as a single political entity (not a goal most Muslims care about). The greatest obstacle to this is perceived to be Western support of countries like Israel and Egypt. So, Bin Laden's view of 9/11 was as a means of weakening the U.S. with the expectation that this could lead to a withdrawal of U.S. support for countries in the Middle East.

The above is mostly drawn from this analysis.

 

[Dagenais]

We will see how much Bush loves paying bills.

Whether it is Bush or Kerry in office, America will still be paying bills.

Believe it or not, I'm already considering leaving Canada itself. With a good majority of the votes going to Plastic Face Harper, there is no way I can live in a country full of wackos voting for anyone because of a silly mistake made by one government.

A lot of the people who vote for Harper is because they believe Canada should undergo new leadership (Liberals have too much power). You need to seriously rethink your comments. People don't just vote for the Conservatives because of one mistake the Liberals made - the Conservatives actually have a pretty good political platform.

Where am I going to go? I haven't decided it yet, but I'm working on it. Any suggestions? Note: US is at the bottom, so don't recommend it.

You're going to leave because some people voted for Stephen Harper?

I don't give a rats ass about how many Olympic Medals we win because I think it is a waste of money for it to go there

It's pretty embarrassing when you don't win any medals. A reason why US, China and Russia pay for their medals. Canada is hosting the Olympics soon - you should care how many medals your country wins.

but most rather see the Toronto Maple Leafs win the Stanley Cup.

What are you talking about?! The Leafs are the most hated team in Canada outside Toronto.

I'm a huge Leafs fan, and um..

That explains a lot.

 

[JasonRox]

Stephen Harper said he HATED Eastern Canadians and Immigrants!

Why the hell would an Eastern Canadian vote for him? I voted NDP, which is much better than voting for someone who hates you.

Stephen Harper was president of the NCC(National Citizens Coalition), and in the 70's they fought against public health care, and they still do. Look at Ralph Klein! He is a perfect example of a wacko at a desk! Getting rid of debt, whoop-dee-****in-doo. At what price did this come?! Ask Albertans because you don't seem to know the facts, and also make sure you ask the diverse group and not only 50 year old farts.

Voting for the Conservatives aka. Canadian Alliance(or Plastic Face Orgs) is accepting the idea of bringing your VISA to the hospital instead of your Health Card. Imagine the competition in a privatized world! They wouldn't share information, which can be critical if you are out of the area.

Also, Stephen Harper admitted (DURING THE ELECTION) that his platform could result in a higher increases in TERRORIST ATTACKS! We live in peace (almost), why throw it out the door?! I love the peacekeeping Canadians, but apparently Canadians are caught up in the American Dream of having a powerful rich(in debt) country. People forgot how many people we have, and having a strong army with very little troops is not easy.

I can go on, and on.

Note: Remember the Flames? Calgary's Cup Drive? Many (almost all) the Calgary fans in CALGARY admitted that they are true Leaf fans, and that it is only a temporary thing in Calgary! Do you even know what people think outside of Quebec? Didn't think so?

J'espere que tu pratique ton francais parce que le Quebec va separer. (I have poor French skills, but I try my best, and I hope you are not an ignorant Quebecer, who sticks to English.)

Note: I have an english keyboard.

Note: I am not leaving because the amount of votes against Harper. I PLAN to leave because Canadians (old people) are changing the way they want the country. If you think I'm wrong, the majority of the votes against military spending were from YOUNG Canadians, WHO will be here in 20 years.

 

[JasonRox]

Also, I DON'T LIVE IN TORONTO!

Explain why everyone loves them here?

The Buffalo Sabres are closer!

You just hate the Leafs because the Montreal Canadians are poor.

 

[Dagenais]

Why the hell would an Eastern Canadian vote for him?

So everyone who voted for the Conservative Party is a Western redneck?

I voted NDP

So you have no damn clue about politics and the political history of Canada, do you? Or you would have remembered the NDP's failure in BC.

Voting for the Conservatives aka. Canadian Alliance(or Plastic Face Orgs) is accepting the idea of bringing your VISA to the hospital instead of your Health Card.

Wrong.

The conservatives are not against Government funded health care: Access to Health Care Canadians depend on our public system of health care. That’s why the Conservative Party supported the federal-provincial Health Accord. A Conservative government will cooperate with the provinces to ensure adequate funding, shorter waiting lists, and more doctors and nurses. We will improve access to health care for all Canadians, regardless of ability to pay. Demand Better. Demand improved access to health care.

love the peacekeeping Canadians, but apparently Canadians are caught up in the American Dream of having a powerful rich(in debt) country.

Another comment based on nothing.

Stephen Harper said he HATED Eastern Canadians and Immigrants!

No he doesn't. He simply stated that the reason the Liberals have such a hold in Western Canada is because of Asian immigrants and those who migrated from the East.

In fact one of the Conservative Party's major issues is that they will fight for immigrants and to ensure speedier recognition of foreign credentials.

People forgot how many people we have, and having a strong army with very little troops is not easy.

Clearly you completely misunderstand Harper's position on the military. The Conservatives wish to properly fund Canada's military because right now, they are underfunded. And to make sure they have the right equipment and training to do dangerous tasks needed.

Note: Remember the Flames? Calgary's Cup Drive? Many (almost all) the Calgary fans in CALGARY admitted that they are true Leaf fans, and that it is only a temporary thing in Calgary! Do you even know what people think outside of Quebec? Didn't think so?

Actually, I do. You can head to Sportsnet.ca's forum right now. "Leafs fan" is constantly used as an insult.

I lived in B.C. for almost a decade, and even there people hate the Leafs. It seems you have no clue what you're talking about - then again, you're trying to leave the country because of "old people" and Stephen Harper not winning the election.

You just hate the Leafs because the Montreal Canadians are poor.

You don't even spell the team's name correctly.

Explain why everyone loves them here?

Everyone loves them? Ever wonder why the rest of Canada hates you? It's because of that ignorant and delusional attitude. The same attitude that's trademark to Leafs fans.



Note: Get back to me when you clear up your obvious misconceptions.