# A limit to God's power?

If there is a god I'm positive that everyone out there would agree that his power is infinite. BUT. If God truely has infinite power is it possible for God to purposely make an object so heavy that he himself cannot lift it?

only IF s/he/it wanted to see what it felt like to be powerless!

love&peace,
olde drunk

Infinity is Finite.

lvlastermind said:
If there is a god I'm positive that everyone out there would agree that his power is infinite. BUT. If God truely has infinite power is it possible for God to purposely make an object so heavy that he himself cannot lift it?

I tried singing "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall". I got bored and quit, because the song took to long to finish, so I never experienced the song in it's entirety. When I tried to think of infinity and endless space, I never got there, the same thing happened.

Infinity is finite. I'll prove it. Take for instance mass. Mass may be imaginatively split infinitely. The parts may be imaginatively split but physically they do not increase or decrease in mass, so parts are always finite. Is the universe infinite? Every finite piece can make up a finite whole. How could finite peices make an infinity? An infinite amount of peices. But try to imagine that. Infinity must be finite. Afterall, that's all I've experienced of it.

lvlastermind said:
If there is a god I'm positive that everyone out there would agree that his power is infinite.

If there is a god, most people would not accept it, so your point is not valid. How could you be positive about this, anyway?

BUT. If God truely has infinite power is it possible for God to purposely make an object so heavy that he himself cannot lift it?

Infinite power is a meaningless catch phrase. What do you mean by it?

If you mean that he has sufficient power to make an object blah blah, then yes. If you don't, then no.

I woudl think this God could de-create anything he creates simply because he knows how to.......

omin said:
I tried singing "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall". I got bored and quit, because the song took to long to finish, so I never experienced the song in it's entirety. When I tried to think of infinity and endless space, I never got there, the same thing happened.

Infinity is finite. I'll prove it. Take for instance mass. Mass may be imaginatively split infinitely. The parts may be imaginatively split but physically they do not increase or decrease in mass, so parts are always finite. Is the universe infinite? Every finite piece can make up a finite whole. How could finite peices make an infinity? An infinite amount of peices. But try to imagine that. Infinity must be finite. Afterall, that's all I've experienced of it.
that only deals with physical parts. what if these parts are made of an unlimited form of energy that can be reduced, not divided??

by the same token, what if the energy can join with other units of energy, an infinite number, and make infinite combinations and amounts??

love&peace,
olde drunk

cronxeh
Gold Member
this whole debate is so stupid and every question has a self-stupifying answer like 'only if he wanted to see what its liek to be powerless'

god doesnt exist. neither does hell/heaven/demons or any of that crap you were fed as a child. get a grip and see whats wrong with this world - religion.

I think that there is finite matter in this universe but the matter itself is infinite in age.

olde drunk said:
what if these parts are made of an unlimited form of energy that can be reduced, not divided?

All things of the world are physical. All things that can be sensed are sensed directly by the human senses or through human instrumentation that brings effects of physical things to human senses. All things physical, representing everything sensable, are known only because they become thought. Thought represents only human sense (five of them). We may only disuss what we think. All things that we think are physically derived. Energy is percieved by humans. So, energy is physical.

All things known are physical. What is known is limited by temporality of our consciousness. Everyones 'unlimited' or 'infinity' concept has a different value based upon their cognitive experience.

All things sensed have scope. 'Unilimited' energy is percieved only as finite, because it has a value according to ther person's mind and instrumentation bringing it to mind. All things that have a scope can be divided to the limits of perception and mechanical ability. Energy can be divided.

Infinity seems to be just a finite property, the property of addition, which needs the assuption that one can comprehend having added matter forever or pulled two peices of matter away from each other forever and use it in the same sentence.

Infinity means 'a finite thought' + nothing.

This Glass is Half Full

cronxeh said:
god doesnt exist. neither does hell/heaven/demons or any of that crap you were fed as a child. get a grip and see whats wrong with this world - religion.

This sounds like an appeal to ignorance. Am I correct?

God cannot be proven to exist. God cannot be proven to not exist. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

I can use the same premises to conclude the converse.

God cannot be proven to exist. God cannot be proven to not exist. Therefore, God does exist.

I think it's understood for convience to say God doesn't exist, but in terms of logic it appears to be an appeal to ignorance. Is there an argument that proves otherwise?

Proof means representation of 'what exists'. Can I prove the word nothing represents 'empty' in the phrase 'the glass is half empty'?

Think of all the space occuring around the objects in your immediate environment. Now imagine all things sensed dissapear. Something positive always comes to mind when this is attempted. Thoughts only represent positive things.

I can prove the glass is half full, because I can compare it with a glass that is full.

Can I prove the glass is half empty with a glass that has no water in it? If you say yes, what have you proven? I think only positive things are infered here. Here is a glass. And here is a glass that is half full.

God doesn't exist means [negation]God. There must first be a sensed God to negate. And negation is based upon the property of displacement, since energy is neither created or destroyed.

cronxeh said:
get a grip and see whats wrong with this world - religion.

I agree that religious theories do create mental disorder and are harmful to society. The most popular religious theories today are political and mainstream television. Most of us traded a bible for prime time and politics.

God cannot be proven to exist. God cannot be proven to not exist. Therefore, God doesn't exist.
wouldn't a better conclusion be God's existence or non existence remains the subject of debate? ha ........I couldn't resist

Problems

omin said:
Infinity is finite. I'll prove it. Take for instance mass. Mass may be imaginatively split infinitely. The parts may be imaginatively split but physically they do not increase or decrease in mass, so parts are always finite. Is the universe infinite? Every finite piece can make up a finite whole. How could finite peices make an infinity? An infinite amount of peices. But try to imagine that. Infinity must be finite. Afterall, that's all I've experienced of it.

Infinity is not finite
Infinity is limitless... things can be larger or smaller infinities in the way they grow, however they are not finite. Your proof is flawed in many ways an obvious way being that mass CANNOT be split forever. You could only "split" it to its basic constitutients aka strings for ur stringest or some other fundamental particle.

Also on god being proven or disproved. I believe both are possible however plausable is a very different story. We may one day be able to develop a way to understand the universe to a point that the current state of our feeble minds would not be able to comprehend. And for the religous folks out there the proving of God is a lot easier story... say the rapture occurs well... that should be a clue or for whatever reason if you believe in God what would prevent him from comming down and enlightening us all of his existance.

Why would God waste his time making a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? Anyway, I can tell you a lot about God, just ask sometime.

tell me about God Yggdrasil.....I would like to know

lvlastermind said:
If there is a god I'm positive that everyone out there would agree that his power is infinite.

This is where the problem arises. Your paradox is with regard to omnipotence, but the use of the term "god" conjures up the concept of the creator of the Universe, or the gods of holy writings, &c.

Yes, omnipotence is paradoxical, this has been known since the time of the ancient Greeks (possibly longer). However, not all gods were said to be omnipotent. For example, the God of the Bible stated His own limitations quite clearly in the Bible. The gods of Greek and Roman myth were inferior to the greatest god (Zeus and Jupiter, respectively) and yet even those great gods had limitations, which were born out throughout the legends. Actually, one of my favorite examples is the Egyptian god, Ra. Ra was the greatest of the gods, but "Ra" wasn't his real name. According to Egyptian tradition, knowing something's name gives you power over that thing. So, Ra kept his real name secret, so as not to allow anything to have power over him (though, of course, there was a legend wherein one of the goddesses learned of his real name, and caused all kinds of havoc ).

Anyway, the paradox is one of omnipotence, not of godship. Just thought I'd point that out to keep this from turning into a religious discussion.

loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Yggdrasil said:
Why would God waste his time making a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? Anyway, I can tell you a lot about God, just ask sometime.

It's funny that no one ever answers this question. The potential omnipotence of an intelligent creator is always defended by saying he would never do it. That wasn't the question. It was not asked whether or not he would do it. It was asked whether or not he could do it. Since you are apparently personally acquainted with this being, perhaps you can ask him for us.

By the way, are you Dr. Courtney Brown or a devotee of his?

I am sure God doesn't exist. But I also believe that God will exist.

Yggdrasil said:
Why would God waste his time making a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? Anyway, I can tell you a lot about God, just ask sometime.

It's just one of those questions that will probably never be answered.

If a tree falls....

loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
What? We're four dimensional beings living in a four dimensional world, and we can build four-dimensional objects. What are these other beings (aside from God) that you're referring to?

By the way, if God can create a rock that he couldn't lift, then it is conceivable that there could exist a task that he could not perform. This means he is not omnipotent, which I'm pretty sure was the point of this thread.

The one big problem with religion, or for God at least, is simplicity. In the Bible it says he simply creates humans and the world, and whatever he can create and just set it into existence. A good reason for why people do not exist is how could whatever it is just do that? Well since we have proven physics and math, why does it say it took him 6 days to make earth?

I can tell you right now I could make earth in its earliest stages, plain, in a lot less time. If God truly exists, I for one believe that it is nearly not this simple. The main reason is that are mind would not, and still hard to fathom, if in the bible it said how he REALLY, made earth and humans. If you look at DNA structures, and photons, and neurons and ect, God probably had to create this, this perfect structure of earth and how every things connected. I for one do not think he just droped us out of the mere sky and said bam, you are created. If anything, It was a long proccess, and certainly trying to explain something like that to people that used to live in Christs time.. is improbable.

Another degrading part of Religion to society, is people now go to Churc to wear their new cloths. Especially, I for one, can not stand those Televised Religous talk shows. A good one for instance, is where the the preacher, slaps a injured in the head and says Jesus has cured you. Well for one, only Jesus could do that him self. What they need is an update on the bible, since now we have found out soo many things, we can comprehend more. The bible is a childs version of how things work/were created.

Thats just my thought about how religion sounds so bogus, and why people really need to actually be religous and believe in more logical concepts, if they do believe in God. :D!!!

<3 All!!!

Remember our super hero "Superman" and how the script writers put limitations on his abilities. Why did they limit supermans abilities?
Because if he was truelly omnipotent it would mean he would not have to do anything. Thus one boring show....so we place limitations just to make God worth talking about. The limitations being the nature of the discussions. True omnipotency of God means there is nothing to discuss.

cronxeh
Gold Member
omin said:
This sounds like an appeal to ignorance. Am I correct?

God cannot be proven to exist. God cannot be proven to not exist. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

Religion started as a result of ignorance and lack of knowledge. It is continuing to exist today because of that tradition of ignorance, and you never stop to think about 'what if there was never god?' you only think in a really closed-loop frame where if you cant prove or disprove it - then it probably exists/or doesnt exist - this 'superposition' from stupidity is in fact an artificial attempt to make one's life less meaningless, by introducing new empty variables like god, heaven, hell, or demon to invigorate the sense of existance.

God doesn't exist means [negation]God. There must first be a sensed God to negate. And negation is based upon the property of displacement, since energy is neither created or destroyed.

Your attempt to sound intelligent made you sound like a liberal arts philosopher with no scientific background, let alone mathematical one. I wont insult my own intelligence by continuing to reply to you.

With all this science and how things work, would make you think, "How wouldn't there be a God?" I think a lot has developed off of ignorance. One thing I hate most, is religous people who aren't open to thoughts of evolution, thoughts of space and how the universe began, and how it will end or what not. Considering I am religous, I really do think that every thing has to do with science at physics, besides math is the universal laungage right? :D

<3 All

Deltron said:
With all this science and how things work, would make you think, "How wouldn't there be a God?" I think a lot has developed off of ignorance. One thing I hate most, is religous people who aren't open to thoughts of evolution, thoughts of space and how the universe began, and how it will end or what not. Considering I am religous, I really do think that every thing has to do with science at physics, besides math is the universal laungage right? :D

<3 All

As far as I am concerned (not in a worried sense) God exists but not in a way that we can visualise. That's a fair point about religion closing minds and it seems to me that this is exactly the reverse of what should actually happen. Acquisition of knowledge (in whichever form it might take) enhances self as much as contemplation of God. As we cannot "see" God, however, we have to rely on studying the Universe. That is endless in much the same way as God is (to my mind).