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A new symmetry in nature

  1. Jun 10, 2004 #1
    If I take a large mass such as the sun and change its negative electric charges (half the total number of charges) into positive charges, so all electric charges are positive, and I transform the electric force so that like charges attract, the charges would be behaving like masses.If I take the mass of the star and convert half of it to negative mass, since like masses attract , we would expect unlike masses to repel one another.By transforming the gravitational force so that unlike masses attract one another, mass
    would now be behaving like charge.
    If mass and charge have swapped places in the Sun, under the above transformation, then mass can generate an electromagnetic wave.
    How fast is this wave?

    Using the equation for the radius excess of the Sun and assuming it must be the same from the point of view of charges as it is from the point of view of masses:

    GM/3 c^2 = k Q/ 3 v^2 ( Q =total charge after half charge in the Sun has its sign reversed,so all charge has one sign)

    10^ -11 x 10^30 / (10^8) ^ 2 = 10^9 x 10^ 38 / v^2

    v = 10 ^ 22 metres per second.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2004
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  3. Jul 6, 2004 #2
    I have been thinking about it for a few days. There are several pranks. In my opinion, from the very begining, you can not state that electromagnetism and gravity are the same except for the occurence of alikes and opposites in electromagnetism. Gravity is deeply different, more similar to strong forces than to electromagnetism. Electromagnetism is somehow the simplest of all interactions. On the other hand, although long distance behavior of gravity is simple (Newton's gravitation law equivalent to Coulomb potential), the gravitational wave is a spin 2 wave. Energy must always be positive, or one has to interprete negative states as traveling backward in time. Only within this interpretation can gravity be repulsive.

    Besides, if you modify the fundamental laws so badly, you should not expect to recover such things as a maximum speed for energy movement. The simple assumption of maximum speed is basically equivalent to special relativity. I am currently trying to find an argument, that even special relativity would not hold within your modifications. Stay tuned !
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2004
  4. Jul 6, 2004 #3


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    a Negative mass would attract a positive mass, with gravity.

    G (-m) m/r^2 = (-m) a =>

    a = G m/r^2

    In fact, the whole thing would be unstable, since the positive mass would want to run away.. Any perturbation from spherical symmetry would send the whole thing into a gigantic mess.
  5. Jul 7, 2004 #4
    Let me follow your lines. Consider two mass points A and B. A has mass Ma>0, and B has mass Mb<0. Denote Aa the acceleration of A, Ab the acceleration of B and u the unit vector from A to B. The force acting on A is :
    F(A) = G Ma Mb / AB^2 * u = Ma Aa
    And the force acting on B is likely just :
    F(B) = G Ma Mb / AB^2 * (-u) = Mb Ab
    OK, so far so good. Then :
    Aa = G Mb / AB^2 * u
    Ab = G Ma / AB^2 * (-u)
    Since Mb is negative, Aa is in the opposite direction of u, and A is repelled from B
    But Ab is in the same direction as u, and therefore B is attracted towards A !!!

    I believe that negative energy state must propagate from the future to the past. This is the only way to have a coherent picture. I am saying "I believe" because it is here purely classical.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2004
  6. Jul 7, 2004 #5


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    Are you talking about a negatively charged mass, or matter with a mass value that is negative? If we're dealing with a negative mass, then the substance causing that mass must be negative energy, yes? And engative energy is said to be gravitationally repulsive.
  7. Jul 7, 2004 #6
    Are you talking about a negatively charged mass, or matter with a mass value that is negative? If we're dealing with a negative mass, then the substance causing that mass must be negative energy, yes? And engative energy is said to be gravitationally repulsive.


    I am talking about gravitationally repulsive energy associated with negatively
    charged mass being repelled by positively charged mass - as though two unlike electric charges repel one another ,if the force mediating photons change from spin 1 to spin 2, and perhaps become gravitons.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2004
  8. Jul 7, 2004 #7


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    I don't know what 'charged' means in terms of gravity.. But if you want to set mass values negative with Newtons equations, then you get what I describe above.

    The negative mass is attracted to the positive mass, the positive mass is repelled by the negative.. So you get a rather funny situation where 1 particle chases the other, fleeing particle. You could imagine some sort of spherical solution (I don't know what it is, I'd have to calculate it.. but I imagine its possible.. maybe say with an inner sphere of positive mass particles, and an outer disk of negative mass).. But it would be unstable, and by phase space arguments, highly unlikely.
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