# African Debt Relief

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Anttech
Well, it seems that the bombings in London during the G8 summit refocues our minds on Terrorism, and away from the Political agendas that many many people in the lead up to the summit were focusing on:

Enviromental issues, and African Poverty.

So to try and refocus some of your minds back, how should we deal with African Poverty, and the corruption found in many Africa goverments right now?

One thing we should all do, as good and honest people, is to create an environment where African countries can trade on an equal footing with developed countries and not use them, like Europe did in the past to piliage and steal wealth!

I would hate for the terrorist to take our minds from some POSITIVE things that we can push our goverments to do... It just doesn't seem right that we can live in such wealth and have our neighbours so poor, yet still "pilage" them by creating an unequal trade platform so we can get richer and watch our neighbours get poorer

Dooga Blackrazor
I'd like to use this thread to pose a question. The concert Live 8 focused on removing African debt, correct? Was any money going to African. The way I interpret this is that they are paying the countries that Africa is in debt with. If they are focused on individual life, why don't they just feed the Africans? It's ludicrous that people are starving at we are worried about getting countries their money back. They should be whiping the slate clean so we can actually help people.

I agree with the comments on terrorism. I wish people would just leave it alone and stop working about being attack. Honestly, if you're attacked, there is a reason. Very few people are actually crazy, freedom-hating terrorists. Actions have reasons, and we should start looking at what those reasons are instead of shooting civilians.

Gold Member
Dooga, no, no money went to Africa. The purpose was solely to "send a message" to the G8. Unfortunately, Al Qaeda sent a far bigger message that week.

The problem with "whiping the slate clean" is that we have done that before.... many many times.... it never worked. The problem is that, as someone pointed out in another thread, the end of colonialism brought upon the rise of a lot of really crappy leaders. These leaders rather keep the money given to the country for their various purposes instead of well, feeding their population. The fact that the people running the country are corrupt means real help is almost impossible. Your not allowed to just drive in food and money into the population and distribute it without the government having a big say in it or refusing you.

And the idea that we need to "leave terrorism alone" is silly. Thats like saying to leave murderers alone in a country. Let that happen and people will just start dieing. We can't stop their leaders from lieing to them so we just need to defend ourselves. Would-be terrorists are told that Christians want them dead and are told lies about countries burning their holy book.... not really something you can stop as far as "reasons" are concerned.

The Smoking Man
Pengwuino said:
And the idea that we need to "leave terrorism alone" is silly. Thats like saying to leave murderers alone in a country. Let that happen and people will just start dieing. We can't stop their leaders from lieing to them so we just need to defend ourselves. Would-be terrorists are told that Christians want them dead and are told lies about countries burning their holy book.... not really something you can stop as far as "reasons" are concerned.

Fox releases a story about them 'Flushin the Koran' which is categorically denied by the administration with great indignity and distain by the highest sources including Rumsfeld himself.

A week later, an internal report hits the press from some small office far from the White House confirming that it was not only true but they have multiple incidents of it actually happening but ... since it is not 'really big news' ... it hits page 10 and falls by the wayside.

Result ... the American populace hears the headline accusation categorically denied by Rummy and the page 10 story in the US hits the front pages in Arabic ... 'Rumsfeld Proven a Liar ... Again'.

You really do yourselves a disservice by spouting this garbage as 'fact'.

Judging by the controversies surrounding the '10 commandments' in courthouses and the like, you have factions here in the USA who would be equally troubled if the Bible were treated in the same way in the ME.

Understanding of the sentiment of others is not inherent to a person who listens to a single news feed and who ignores the news feeds of the opponent. You must question what you hear because to understand your opposition and what motivates him is what brings understanding and hence solutions to conflict.

Gold Member
Oh got to love it when you reply.

Although those reports showed absolutely 0 instances where the Koran was flushed down the toilet, you take it as fact and think its the golden proof that the US is evil. Fact of the matter if, 0 flushes, lot of allegations that turned out to be false, roughly 12 instances of actual "abuse" (i put it in quotation marks because some water splashing into a book by accident doesn't really fit a normal persons idea of abuse).

Pengwuino said:
Oh got to love it when you reply.

Although those reports showed absolutely 0 instances where the Koran was flushed down the toilet, you take it as fact and think its the golden proof that the US is evil. Fact of the matter if, 0 flushes, lot of allegations that turned out to be false, roughly 12 instances of actual "abuse" (i put it in quotation marks because some water splashing into a book by accident doesn't really fit a normal persons idea of abuse).
:rofl: :rofl: Now that's what I call a santized version of events. The report said a guard urinated on it!!!

p.s. Apologies Anttech for following this off topic branch.

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Gold Member
Art said:
:rofl: :rofl: Now that's what I call a santized version of events. The report said a guard urinated on it!!!

That was one of hte unsubstantiated claims. No proof if i recall.

And there was one report where WATER got splashed onto the book. The urine one is a different claim.

Gold Member
Anttech said:
Well, it seems that the bombings in London during the G8 summit refocues our minds on Terrorism, and away from the Political agendas that many many people in the lead up to the summit were focusing on:

Enviromental issues, and African Poverty.

So to try and refocus some of your minds back, how should we deal with African Poverty, and the corruption found in many Africa goverments right now?

One thing we should all do, as good and honest people, is to create an environment where African countries can trade on an equal footing with developed countries and not use them, like Europe did in the past to piliage and steal wealth!

I would hate for the terrorist to take our minds from some POSITIVE things that we can push our goverments to do... It just doesn't seem right that we can live in such wealth and have our neighbours so poor, yet still "pilage" them by creating an unequal trade platform so we can get richer and watch our neighbours get poorer
You mean we shouldn't allow ourselves to be victims in more than one way, i.e., lose our individual freedoms and our hopes and dreams for a better world? I agree! However, I also agree with this:
Pengwuino said:
...The fact that the people running the country are corrupt means real help is almost impossible.
There must be strings attached in regard to the way the money is used. And rather than just giving the people fish day after day, we need to teach them how to fish. As for the unequal trade, this can only be done through industrialization. I've mentioned this several times, the problems with terms of trade between the third world and first world countries--Juan Valdez must pick a lot of coffee beans in order to purchase a computer.

Pengwuino said:
That was one of hte unsubstantiated claims. No proof if i recall.

And there was one report where WATER got splashed onto the book. The urine one is a different claim.
The findings concluded that one soldier deliberately kicked the Muslim holy book, other guards hit it with water balloons, and a soldier's urine splashed on a prisoner and his Koran.

Details of the incidents are contained in the final report of the inquiry headed by Army Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of the detention center for terrorism suspects at the U.S. naval base in Cuba.

Gold Member
..... how dare you agree with me!

*Throws a pie at you*

IRT Art

Well if that's the case, and i assume you can provide a source on it, then you are right. We definitely deserved to have the WTC knocked down.

And what are they doing with water balloons????

Pengwuino said:
IRT Art

Well if that's the case, and i assume you can provide a source on it, then you are right. We definitely deserved to have the WTC knocked down.

And what are they doing with water balloons????
Here's one source of many if you search on google
Pentagon: Koran Defiled
By Richard A. Serrano
The Los Angeles Times
Saturday 04 June 2005

Gold Member
Five incidents, you heard it here folks. We deserved 9/11 for 5 incidents... none of which had anythign to do with a toilet.

Oh and lookie here... prisoners defiled the book 15 times... that's got to piss themselves off.

Pengwuino said:
Five incidents, you heard it here folks. We deserved 9/11 for 5 incidents... none of which had anythign to do with a toilet.

Oh and lookie here... prisoners defiled the book 15 times... that's got to piss themselves off.
I think you're having a problem with the concept of "cause and effect." As you surely recall, 9/11 happened before these incidents, which would indicate that they were not, as you say, responsible for the attacks on the WTC.

As for the second sentace: could you please clarify what you're saying, because I really can't make sense of it.

SOS2008 said:
rather than just giving the people fish day after day, we need to teach them how to fish.
The g factor predicts educational outcome better than any other single construct, and the populations of undeveloped nations tend to be low on the g factor.

childrenofmillennium.org/science.htm

Please observe the red and pink areas in the graphic below:
http://www.childrenofmillennium.org/eugenics/pages/articles/IQmap.gif

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Gold Member
The g factor predicts educational outcome better than any other single construct, and the populations of undeveloped nations tend to be low on the g factor.

childrenofmillennium.org/science.htm

Please observe the red and pink areas in the graphic below:
http://www.childrenofmillennium.org/eugenics/pages/articles/IQmap.gif
Interesting link. So education would be in line with an industrialized/high-tech culture versus an agricultural culture, and this holds true within the U.S. regarding blue states versus red states. (I couldn't help but notice that alcoholism and lying are inversely related, hmm...)

Townsend
SOS2008 said:
So education would be in line with an industrialized/high-tech culture versus an agricultural culture, and this holds true within the U.S. regarding blue states versus red states.

Hardly... :rofl:

http://www.childrenofmillennium.org/eugenics/pages/articles/IQStatesMap.gif
My state is very blue and very agricultural.

Seems to put the blue states at a high IQ score to me. But it does not matter....

The false color map above was created by averaging the results from both studies; since most of the scores were fairly close in each study, it stands to reason that the data is accurate. Still, this information should be taken with a grain of salt, since it is dacades old, and also since some of the information is patchy (specifically, several states had only a handful of Veterans to supply scores).

the longitudinal persistance of the g factor within inbreeding populations

SOS2008 said:
Interesting link. So education would be in line with an industrialized/high-tech culture versus an agricultural culture
South Korea was not strongly industrialized/high-tech 40 years ago, yet its population was high on the g factor. China is not strongly industrialized/high-tech today, yet its population is high on the g factor. Recently, Korea rapidly transformed into an industrialized/high-tech society, and China is in the process of doing so today.

Industrialization does not predict educability. The g factor predicts educability. The nations of sub-Saharan Africa have no hope of becoming industrialized/high-tech as long as their populations remain low on the g factor, and the g factor tends to be longitudinally persistent within inbreeding populations.

Gold Member
Assuming the g factor to be a legitimate theory, and regardless of which variable is the cause and which the effect, the over-all picture (yes there will be exceptions) remains as stated. Now what was the OP about? Oh yeh, the G8 summit...

The g factor and the hopelessness of industrializing sub-Saharan Africa

SOS2008 said:
the over-all picture (yes there will be exceptions) remains as stated.
China is not an industrialized/high-tech nation, yet its population has a high average IQ. There seems to be something wrong with your theory.

SOS2008 said:
Now what was the OP about? Oh yeh, the G8 summit.
The original post was not about the G8 summit. Here is the original post:

Anttech said:
to try and refocus some of your minds back, how should we deal with African Poverty, and the corruption found in many Africa goverments right now?

One thing we should all do, as good and honest people, is to create an environment where African countries can trade on an equal footing with developed countries

Because its populations are afflicted with persistent intergenerational low-g, sub-Saharan Africa cannot industrialize. If it, unlike South Korea and China, is fundamentally inhibited from industrializing, how could it trade on equal footing?

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Townsend
Because its populations are afflicted with persistent intergenerational low-g, sub-Saharan Africa cannot industrialize. If it, unlike South Korea and China, is fundamentally inhibited from industrializing, how could it trade on equal footing?

So, what should be done? Any ideas? Donate some high g genes to the people of Africa?

Townsend said:
So, what should be done?

Townsend

Industrializing sub-Saharan Africa. If that is what we need to do, then how should we do that?

Paraphrasing:

Townsend: "If that is the case, then how do we do it?"

Townsend
Paraphrasing:

Townsend: "If that is the case, then how do we do it?"
:rofl:
ok, you got me...but that is not paraphrasing...

ok...I guess what I am asking is, can the g be increased by mixing with high g genes? If so, should it be done?

The Smoking Man
Townsend said:
:rofl:
ok, you got me...but that is not paraphrasing...

ok...I guess what I am asking is, can the g be increased by mixing with high g genes? If so, should it be done?
Give them glue and paper. They can produce the world's largest stock of sandpaper.

Animal husbandry applied to human populations

Townsend said:
can the g be increased by mixing with high g genes?
Yes. But it might be said that the nations would no longer be sub-Saharan African nations. They would be genetically-engineered sub-Saharan African nations.

If you wanted to modify the genetic course of sub-Saharan Africa, you would have more options than that, though. You might breed the sub-Saharan African populations down to extinction and replace them with populations that have already proven themselves to be economically and scientifically competent. Or you might breed the sub-Saharan African populations in such a way as to raise their IQs, decrease their field-dependence, increase their cognitive mobilty, decrease their extroversion, and decrease their psychoticism (i.e., breed them to be good citizens, scientists, leaders, and businessmen) -- all without introducing new genes.

Townsend said:
should it be done?
That would depend upon the mission criteria of the given enterprise. The original topic of this thread, however, was the elimination of poverty and corruption in sub-Saharan Africa, which could be accomplished by ignoring trade and industrialization altogether and permanently hospitalizing the entire sub-continent (as Raymond Cattell pointed out http://www.efn.org/~callen/ToC.htm).

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Gold Member
Archon said:
I think you're having a problem with the concept of "cause and effect." As you surely recall, 9/11 happened before these incidents, which would indicate that they were not, as you say, responsible for the attacks on the WTC.

Well that wasnt the complaint charged against me. It was illogical but might as well argue it since case and effect weren't necessarily in question. The magnitude of "crimes" committed by the US or terrorists was in question and that was the only real focus required as I am sure we could have had the same argument if TSM brought up a pre-9/11 case. Of course, that would require him to leave his mainstream propoganda feeding so i wouldn't have expected it.

Archon said:
As for the second sentace: could you please clarify what you're saying, because I really can't make sense of it.

Its just an ironic joke making fun of the fact that they get pissed off at us doing something that they did 3x as much.

Gold Member
Townsend said:
Hardly... :rofl:

http://www.childrenofmillennium.org/eugenics/pages/articles/IQStatesMap.gif
My state is very blue and very agricultural.

Seems to put the blue states at a high IQ score to me. But it does not matter....

haha better watch out with that map. Theres a fake "blue state vs. red state IQ sample" going around the web that someone made up with some very unscientific data as a campaign ploy for the election. Some people will just stick that low.

Steve Sailer's US state IQ data vs the internet hoax

Pengwuino said:
better watch out with that map. Theres a fake "blue state vs. red state IQ sample" going around
That map uses data compiled by Steve Sailer. Here is Sailer's article from which the data for the map was taken:
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/041114_iq.htm

It mentions the hoax.

--
Since the election, the Internet has been swamped by that phony-baloney table of average IQs by state that I debunked in VDARE.COM way back in May—you know, the one where blue states have average IQs as high as 113 and red states have average IQs as low as 85.
--

Gold Member
haha why are people so full of hate that they make up IQ graphs to put other people down after their animal lost the election.

Anttech
The g factor predicts educational outcome better than any other single construct, and the populations of undeveloped nations tend to be low on the g factor.

Unbelievable, so you are saying that the Africans are stupid, and thus cannot trade equally??? this is total crap! We Manipluate them, so they cannot trade equally, this is why, nothing to do with intelegence... Go to london City and see how many "africans" there are in high powered Jobs, that require the "g" factor!

I'll give you an example:

"The scale of government support to America’s 25,000 cotton farmers is staggering, reflecting the political influence of corporate farm lobbies in key states. Every acre of cotton farmland in the US attracts a subsidy of $230, or around five times the transfer for cereals. In 2001/02 farmers reaped a bumper harvest of subsidies amounting to$3.9bn – double the level in 1992. This increase in subsidies is a breach of the ‘Peace Clause’ in the WTO Agreement on Agriculture, opening the door to the Brazilian complaint."

Source Oxfam NON-profit organisation, with Nothing to gain from publishing this material.

Now if you can't afford to feed yourself let alone pay for a good education, how on Earth are you supposed to get the "G" factor?

The g factor predicts educational outcome better than any other single construct, and the populations of undeveloped nations tend to be low on the g factor.
It would appear the authors of the report are also lacking somewhat in the g factor given the shoddy methodology they employed in developing their model. A not too uncommon consequence of fixing the data to support a theory.
National IQ estimates
Central to the book's thesis, and perhaps one of its most controversial parts, is a tabulation of what Lynn and Vanhanen believe to be the average IQs of the world's nations. Rather than do their own IQ studies (a potentially massive project), the authors average and adjust existing studies.

The figures were obtained by taking unweighted averages of different IQ tests. The number of studies is very limited; the IQ figure is based on one study in 34 nations, two studies in 30 nations. The number of subjects in each study were usually limited, often numbering under a few hundred. The exceptions to this were the United States and Japan, for which studies using more than several thousand subjects are available. Studies that were averaged together often used different methods of IQ testing, different scales for IQ values and/or were done decades apart.

There are also errors in the raw data presented by authors. The results from Vinko Buj's 1981 study used different scaling than Lynn and Vanhanen. Also, Buj's original IQ figures in Ireland, Norway and Greece differ from the figures given by Lynn and Vanhanen.

They also adjusted the figures relative to the baseline of UK results, which was taken as 100. When the overall population of the sample countries is taken into account, the mean IQ of the world as indicated by these figures is about 90, which is different than the standard calibration, which sets the mean IQ of any total population at 100.

To account for the Flynn effect (an increase in IQ scores over time), the authors sometimes adjust the results of older studies upward by an arbitrary number of points. Because of the arbitrary adjustments and the fact that only limited data are available for most nations, the figures given should be considered estimates and can reasonably be expected to vary by about 10 or 15 points in either direction.

It should be noted that there is controversy about whether IQ is a valid measurement of intelligence, especially among third-world populations. See the article at IQ for details, as well as the article Race and intelligence. In particular, note that most individuals in a given country will not have the country's average IQ, and that it is generally agreed that many factors, including environment, culture, demographics, wealth, pollution, and educational opportunities, affect measured IQ.
And for the 104 countries where there were no figures at all available they simply averaged the IQs of surrounding countries with adjustments to cater for their personal racial predjudice. Hmm very scientific. http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/List_of_countries_by_IQ [Broken]

And here's a peer review publication
Abstract
Recently Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen have presented evidence that differences in national
IQ account for the substantial variation in national per capita income and growth. This paper
challenges these findings and claims that, firstly, they simply reflect inappropriate use and
interpretations of statistical instruments. Secondly, it is argued that the models presented by Lynn
and Vanhanen are under-complex and inadequately specified. More precisely the authors confuse
IQ with human capital. The paper concludes that once control variables are introduced and the
models are adequately specified, neither an impact of IQ on income nor on growth can be
substantiated.
http://www.suz.unizh.ch/volken/ThomasVolken/pdfs/IQWealthNation.pdf [Broken]

Eugenics is simply the pseudo-science developed to justify and salve the conscience of racists and bigots for the past couple of hundred years.

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Townsend
Art said:
Eugenics is simply the pseudo-science developed to justify and salve the conscience of racists and bigots for the past couple of hundred years.

Good post....I agree.

Art,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ

Your second link is to an article by Volken which has been discussed here at Physics Forums.

You quoted Volken as saying, "...the authors confuse IQ with human capital." I replied to that many months ago here at Physics Forums by saying:
Volken says, "...the authors [Lynn and Vanhanen] confuse IQ with human capital." As I pointed out in the Volken thread, that is a criticism of Arthur Jensen's The g Factor (1998), not of Lynn and Vanhanen. If Volken has an issue with IQ as a major factor in human capital, his issue is with Arthur Jensen's work, and therefore that is where he should be directing his investigations.

Art,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ
So good they named it twice