Airport Searches: Too Far or Necessary?

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In summary: Even more idiotic, incoming international travelers must go through a TSA checkpoint after deplaning and before exiting the airport... wth?Relevant story: http://www.slate.com/id/2275721/In principle, I understand the need for full body scans and highly personal searches, but I think this has gone too far. What happened to chemical swab tests? Aren't these effective? I've had my stuff swabbed at least a dozen times [I was often carrying a lot of test equipment that demanded a closer look].An interesting point was made about the polling of this issue. It doesn't mean anything to poll the general public. What matters is
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  • #107
Proton Soup said:
no, you only have an illusion of control.

Ah, so I can't leave the train station anytime I want? I can't move from one end of the platform to the other? I can't move away from the suspicious bloke looking rather nervous?

In a public place such as a train station, I have an element of control over what happens. On an aircraft, I can do none of the above.
 
  • #108
jarednjames said:
Ah, so I can't leave the train station anytime I want? I can't move from one end of the platform to the other? I can't move away from the suspicious bloke looking rather nervous?

In a public place such as a train station, I have an element of control over what happens. On an aircraft, I can do none of the above.

Do you know that was post number 666:devil: for you - just saying.o:)
 
  • #109
Jasongreat said:
...Once we rent a seat on the airplane, isn't it our perogative to protect our life while in that seat as well? In the US, we don't have a right to be protected by law enforcement, why should we then be forced to rely on law enforcement for out protection?

Not exactly the same. In an aircraft, the crew (= landlord) is constantly present and it's them who have the final say, because their life is also at risk if you fight against an attacker. Putting a bullet hole in an apartment wall won't risk blowing a fuel tank and make everyone fall from very high. The ground law enforcement protects the in-flight crew, and the crew protects you.

I think if guns had been allowed on 9/11, the evildoers would have been prepared for it and the ending would have been similar.
 
  • #110
jarednjames said:
Ah, so I can't leave the train station anytime I want? I can't move from one end of the platform to the other? I can't move away from the suspicious bloke looking rather nervous?

In a public place such as a train station, I have an element of control over what happens. On an aircraft, I can do none of the above.

you're assuming he would look nervous in the scenario you think you could escape from. but all he has to do is arrive in a hurried state like any other passenger and then detonate. he doesn't have to sit and stew in his anxiety for hours like yourself. your feeling of control is just an illusion, tho. all that being on the plane adds is a time delay to the random event of being killed by a terrorist.

the only difference between the two is the claustrophobic anxiety you experience from being on the plane. so, it's not a safety concern, it's a matter of how the situation makes you feel. and if you can be dismissive of how some people feel about being violated by the new security procedures, then it's just as easy to dismiss your anxiety about feeling helpless on a plane. so, if the new procedures are dropped, you can simply not fly if it makes you uncomfortable.
 
  • #111
FlexGunship said:
Yes, this is a very stark an un-pragmatic way to look at it, but this is the core of the issue. Before terrorist intervention interstate travel (and re-entering the country) didn't require these things. Because of terrorism, we have become a society of _______________. Fill in the blank; I can't decide what to put there.

"Quivering, blithering over-reactive, empire-building power-mongers, governmentally speaking"

Just a guess...
 
  • #112
xxChrisxx said:
For all those people moaning about their rights. As mentioned above flights are conditional. They agree to let you on, after you agree to jump through whatever hoops they want.

Like I said before, you can buy your own plane and not have the hassle of searches before boarding.

So your rights aren't in anyway touched by this. Noones forcing you to be searched becuase you don't have to board a charter or plublic flight, and noones stopping you flying becuase there is always the option of going private with your own lovely jet.

jarednjames said:
No one can force you to fly. If you choose to have a job that requires you to fly to visit employers / customers than you accept the fact you are going to have to submit to security checks to do so.

If you don't like it, don't have a job that requires you to fly.

I don't buy the argument that modern travel is a privilege, not a right.

Air travel has become so intertwined into modern commerce that you can't consider it a private enterprise even if the particular airport you're using is privately owned. It's become similar to the role rivers used to play in travel and commerce, and, in the case of rivers, travel and commerce trumped personal property rights. In other words, a property owner may own the property on both sides of the river, but he doesn't own the water, the river or the river bed (rivers tend to fluctuate in their beds if they're not constrained by massive levee systems).

One key indicator that air travel can't be considered a private enterprise in the traditional sense - a privately owned airport couldn't opt to eliminate security checks for passengers. The security checks are mandatory for all commercial air transport - it's not an option that all airport owners and airline owners just happened to agree upon.

Just because a form of transportation or a form of communication is a recent development not envisioned by the authors of the Constitution doesn't mean that people don't have a right to use those modern developments. One of the phrases that bug me the most is "Driving is a privilege, not a right". Driving is a right; however the skills necessary to do it safely warrant some infringements on people's rights - so in that sense, it's not quite a right as unlimited as the right to free speech (we let people say what they want even if they don't know how to spell).

Likewise, people have an implied right to fly; but it, too, warrants some limitations on those rights in some situations just because of the nature of the technology.

Whether you're talking about metal detectors, baggage X-ray machines, backscatter imagers, or pat downs, you're infringing on people's rights to be free of random searches. The debate is about whether the infringements are reasonable compared to the threat. The less intrusive the infringement, the smaller the risk needed to make the infringement reasonable.

In other words, whether the measures are reasonable or not is a topic worthy of debate, where as, the idea that travelers have no right to modern travel dismisses the topic entirely on false grounds - it's not a free market choice that consumers can pick and choose between (the private companies involved don't have a choice about the safety measures either).
 
  • #113
I'm sorry bob, I don't buy any arguments regarding things being a persons "right", flying, driving or otherwise.

Driving and flying alike are both heavily dependent on each persons own financial circumstances. If you can afford it, you can do it. If you can't, then you simply aren't able to.

I don't want a debate on this, but I felt if you wanted to put your view on the matter it would be fair for me to put an opposing one in place.
 
  • #114
I don't have a huge problem with it, but I feel like if we allow the government to keep infringing on the edge of our rights, sooner or later they'll start taking away from the rights that actually matter, and nobody will think twice to stop them. That's why I'm not comfortable with the TSA's new protocol.
 
  • #115
BobG said:
I don't buy the argument that modern travel is a privilege, not a right.
It's a service being provided for a fee with conditions. If you don't like those conditions, then you can complain about them all you want but it certainly doesn't violate your rights as there is an alternative available.

BobG said:
Whether you're talking about metal detectors, baggage X-ray machines, backscatter imagers, or pat downs, you're infringing on people's rights to be free of random searches.
It's hardly random if you've consented to security measures when you buy a ticket. Small print is lovely isn't it.

The security checks are mandatory for all commercial air transport
Buy a private jet, no security checks for boarding them.
 
  • #116
Proton Soup said:
you mean like buildings? the trade towers were specifically targeted initially (unsuccessfully) on the ground. the 9-11 hijackings were simply a means to an end to destroy the towers. hijackings seem unlikely now, given the new cockpit doors. if anything, they should frisk pilots instead of passengers.

the targets seem to be high profile items. the trade towers were an international symbol of american empire. blowing up planes may be a bit passe now. even the recent toner cartridges were addressed to synagogues.

An airplane doesn't need to target a building to cause mass casualties. The Christmas bomber last year intended to explode the airliner over a populated section of Detroit. We can't re-locate airports to remote locations away from population centers - or even re-route air traffic away from people in general.

I'm also concerned about the vulnerability of large crowds - remember the Olympic bombing in Atlanta and the recent plot in Oregon? I shudder to think how many fuel trucks are on the highway at any given time. They are both portable and lethal in the wrong hands.

Hopefully airliners aren't permitted to fly over stadiums?
 
  • #117
WhoWee said:
An airplane doesn't need to target a building to cause mass casualties. The Christmas bomber last year intended to explode the airliner over a populated section of Detroit. We can't re-locate airports to remote locations away from population centers - or even re-route air traffic away from people in general.

I'm also concerned about the vulnerability of large crowds - remember the Olympic bombing in Atlanta and the recent plot in Oregon? I shudder to think how many fuel trucks are on the highway at any given time. They are both portable and lethal in the wrong hands.

Hopefully airliners aren't permitted to fly over stadiums?

i think you overestimate the targeting capability of a guy sitting in coach. the chance of hitting a target as small as a stadium would be ridiculously low.

airliners drop out of the sky often enough, and the only time i can remember one taking out large numbers of people on the ground is 9-11 with hijackers actually steering the plane.
 
  • #118
Proton Soup said:
i think you overestimate the targeting capability of a guy sitting in coach. the chance of hitting a target as small as a stadium would be ridiculously low.

airliners drop out of the sky often enough, and the only time i can remember one taking out large numbers of people on the ground is 9-11 with hijackers actually steering the plane.

I don't think targeting would be a big concern if an aircraft exploded above a stadium. Also, I was thinking about stadium or race track locations near airports.
 
  • #119
xxChrisxx said:
It's a service being provided for a fee with conditions.
This is false. The "conditions" being imposed are not part of any service agreement, they are not imposed as a condition by either party to the agreement. The "conditions" are interference by a third party (government).

That doesn't mean the interference is unjustified, but it does mean that it cannot be justified as a "condition" imposed by an agreement between the parties, because it isn't.
 
  • #120
The conditions are there regardless of who puts them there and if signed they become binding.

On rental agreements (at least in the UK), the government imposes certain restrictions/conditions which must be in the terms of the contract - they are to protect lanlords / renters in various situations.

On signing the contract, both parties agree to adhere to these conditions, even though neither party put them there.

I'd also add that you agree to submit to security checks. Who performs these checks is irrelevant.
 
  • #121
jarednjames said:
The conditions are there regardless of who puts them there and if signed they become binding.

On rental agreements (at least in the UK), the government imposes certain restrictions/conditions which must be in the terms of the contract - they are to protect lanlords / renters in various situations.

On signing the contract, both parties agree to adhere to these conditions, even though neither party put them there.
Exactly, and in the case of those rental agreements, one could not logically justify such "restrictions/conditions" on the basis that they were voluntarily and mutually chosen by the parties to the contract.
 
  • #122
You still agree to them. If you don't like them you don't have to sign.

You are agreeing with the airline to submit to security checks. I don't see why who performs them is relevant.

You go to a nightclub and they require security checks on entrance, you agree to submit to these checks to get in. The security checks are performed by security officers working for an outside agency, not the club. They are simply there to perform the checks.
 
  • #123
jarednjames said:
You still agree to them. If you don't like them you don't have to sign.
You agree to them under duress imposed by a third party. The duress imposed by the third party cannot be justified by the subsequent agreement to the terms imposed by the duress. That's just faulty logic.

The restrictions in this case, as well as for flying, must be justified in another way or not at all.
You are agreeing with the airline to submit to security checks. I don't see why who performs them is relevant.
I wasn't referring to conditions agreed to by the parties. I was referring to restrictions imposed by government.
You go to a nightclub and they require security checks on entrance, you agree to submit to these checks to get in. The security checks are performed by security officers working for an outside agency, not the club. They are simply there to perform the checks.
Exactly. And if those security checks were mandated by government, they would have to be justified by government.

Can't we just cut the crap? There is no reason to pretend to not understand the difference between private agreements and the government using force to imposed their will against citizens.
 
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  • #124
Al68 said:
There is no reason to pretend to not understand the difference between private agreements and the government using force to imposed their will against citizens.

'Force' and 'duress' imply there is simply no other option, when in fact you have two options a: go on a private plane not a commercial flight b: don't fly. It's not anyones fault including the US govt that you can't afford the hassle free alternative.

Poor? Sorry you'll have to jump through hoops. Don't like it, become rich. simples.
 
  • #125
xxChrisxx said:
'Force' and 'duress' imply there is simply no other option, when in fact you have two options a: go on a private plane not a commercial flight b: don't fly. It's not anyones fault including the US govt that you can't afford the hassle free alternative.

Poor? Sorry you'll have to jump through hoops. Don't like it, become rich. simples.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread."
 
  • #126
Bad laws and rules have loopholes or downright silly repercussions. The new TSA invasive search rules are bad rules.

Bend them, twist them, and make everyone feel awkward.

"I'd like to skip the backscatter and be patted down."
"Okay."
"In private."
"Sure."
"And I'm a little sexually confused lately, so, it should probably be a woman..."
"Uhh..."
"...and a man."
"Sir..."
"And maybe they could hug a little?"
"I seriously doubt..."
"Do you have any dogs that could help?"​

At some point, they'll just give up because of all of the nonsense. Or, at least I hope they do.
 
  • #127
I completely forgot about the rule that requires TSA agents to stand there and listen to you until you finish giving instructions on how your search should be performed
 
  • #128
Office_Shredder said:
I completely forgot about the rule that requires TSA agents to stand there and listen to you until you finish giving instructions on how your search should be performed

Actually, they can't touch you without permission. So, yes, they are forced to listen to you. There is an excellent precedent for this. (Citation: http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter [Broken])

Until you explicitly give them permission to touch your genitals, it's still considered sexual assault. You are allowed to specify the gender of the person performing the pat down and you are allowed to request it be done in private.

What's the alternative? The police can only arrest you at the direction of the TSA.
 
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  • #129
FlexGunship said:
Actually, they can't touch you without permission. So, yes, they are forced to listen to you. There is an excellent precedent for this. (Citation: http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter [Broken])

Until you explicitly give them permission to touch your genitals, it's still considered sexual assault. You are allowed to specify the gender of the person performing the pat down and you are allowed to request it be done in private.

What's the alternative? The police can only arrest you at the direction of the TSA.

Personally, I'm not willing to test any of their limits - I have a "stay off 60 minutes" rule.:smile:
 
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  • #130
Office_Shredder said:
I completely forgot about the rule that requires TSA agents to stand there and listen to you until you finish giving instructions on how your search should be performed

You mean this rule?

Think before you speak. Belligerent behavior, inappropriate jokes and threats will not be tolerated. They will result in delays and possibly missing your flight. Local law enforcement may be called as necessary.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/screening_experience.shtm
 
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  • #131
FlexGunship said:
Actually, they can't touch you without permission. So, yes, they are forced to listen to you. There is an excellent precedent for this. (Citation: http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter [Broken])

Until you explicitly give them permission to touch your genitals, it's still considered sexual assault. You are allowed to specify the gender of the person performing the pat down and you are allowed to request it be done in private.

What's the alternative? The police can only arrest you at the direction of the TSA.

This is the incident that was mentioned in posts #8 and #16.

It's a different kind of problem. The person wasn't boarding a flight. The only reason he had to undergo any security check is because the international gates and the accompanying immigration checkpoints exited out into the general boarding area.

In other words, his was a problem of how to get from the departure gate to the airport exit without going through the general boarding area. In his case, security officers gave him a personal escort through the boarding area to the 'outside' part of the airport. It also might be worth noting that it took him 2.5 hours to get from the airplane's gate to the outside of the airport. That might seem a good trade-off to some.

That won't help you if you're arriving at the airport intending to get on a flight.
 
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  • #132
BobG said:
In other words, his was a problem of how to get from the departure gate to the airport exit without going through the general boarding area. In his case, security officers gave him a personal escort through the boarding area to the 'outside' part of the airport. It also might be worth noting that it took him 2.5 hours to get from the airplane's gate to the outside of the airport. That might seem a good trade-off to some.

  1. The only difference between the two forms of screening is that in one case you could miss a flight, and in the other you couldn't. The guidelines are the same.
  2. 2.5 hours is a good first try. Hopefully, as a society, we can get the time down to a few minutes. The script will be routine, and everyone will know their parts.

Can't solve the problem all at once. But this is a good start.

EDIT: Sorry, I should be clear in my stance. The TSA compulsory sexual assault rules are a violation of human decency in my opinion. Prior to terrorist activity, I could fly on an inter-state plane without being photographed naked or subjected to having my "junk" touched. Now, as a direct result of terrorist activity, we are terrorizing each other. I, for one, see this as a problem that needs to be solved.
 
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  • #133
xxChrisxx said:
'Force' and 'duress' imply there is simply no other option...
No they don't. They mean that force or duress is being used to limit choices.
 
  • #134
BobG said:
In other words, his was a problem of how to get from the departure gate to the airport exit without going through the general boarding area.
In this case presumably cock-up rather than conspiracy, but it does raise an interesting point. What do you do with a US citizen, on US soil, trying to enter his own country who refuses to go through the check - send him back to where he came from ?

It also might be worth noting that it took him 2.5 hours to get from the airplane's gate to the outside of the airport. That might seem a good trade-off to some.
In the sense that it would have been quicker for Rosa Parks to just sit at the back of the bus, or Gandhi to have stayed as a rich lawyer.
 
  • #135
Under the definition of duress within contract law, this is the only section I feel applies here:
Lack of reasonable alternative (but to accept the other party's terms). If there is an available legal remedy, an available market substitute (in the form of funds, goods, or services), or any other sources of funds this element is not met.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress#The_elements_of_economic_duress

However, it depends what you consider reasonable. To me, driving is a reasonable alternative for shorter trips, but anything over 500 miles and it's not reasonable. But then I'd also weigh in the cost of the trip. If it costs the same or less to drive than to fly, regardless of distance I'd consider it fairly reasonable. So it's a matter of preference for this one and what a court would see as reasonable.

So given it's a case of do it or don't fly, for international flights I can completely understand the 'duress' aspect. But for internal flights I'm not so sure, especially for a country like Britain where driving anywhere isn't that bad.

I'd also add here that it's no different to a number of other situations, such as the nightclub example people keep mentioning. With the nightclubs it is a case of be searched or bugger off. Now given every club I can go to involves this pat down pre-entry procedure, there is no reasonable alternative and yet no one complains about it.

As I've said in other threads, it seems like Americans have double standards. You are happy to accept searches for clubs and not make noise about them but the moment it's something regarding the government it's the worst thing ever and must be stopped.
From my perspective, being searched before boarding a private aircraft is no different to being searched before entering a private club. The only difference between the two is who does the searching. Perhaps you would prefer if the airport had it's own security, privately funded by ticket price increases, that you agree to on the ticket between you and the airline, who searched you instead?
 
  • #136
NobodySpecial said:
In this case presumably cock-up rather than conspiracy, but it does raise an interesting point. What do you do with a US citizen, on US soil, trying to enter his own country who refuses to go through the check - send him back to where he came from ?

As I understand it, you can't prevent a US citizen entering the country.
 
  • #137
NobodySpecial said:
In this case presumably cock-up rather than conspiracy, but it does raise an interesting point. What do you do with a US citizen, on US soil, trying to enter his own country who refuses to go through the check - send him back to where he came from ?


In the sense that it would have been quicker for Rosa Parks to just sit at the back of the bus, or Gandhi to have stayed as a rich lawyer.

Seems a little dramatic - aren't passengers expected to arrive 2 hours early...some might consider it reasonable to spend as much time leaving?
 
  • #138
WhoWee said:
Seems a little dramatic - aren't passengers expected to arrive 2 hours early...some might consider it reasonable to spend as much time leaving?

Yeah, it didn't used to be like that. But now it is. There is a direct causal link between terrorist activity and U.S. citizen acting terrorized.

Not to be cliche, but "they won."
 
  • #139
Well in all fairness, their goal seems to be wiping out anyone who doesn't subscribe to their religious beliefs. So in that respect, they haven't won.

The question is, would you rather sit on an aircraft knowing nothing changed after 9/11 and that knives and the like could be on board with a passenger so easily? Or would you prefer to know that everything possible is being done to ensure your safety?

It's slack security that allows things like this to occur in the first place.
 
  • #140
jarednjames said:
Under the definition of duress within contract law, this is the only section I feel applies here:...

However, it depends what you consider reasonable. To me, driving is a reasonable alternative for shorter trips, but anything over 500 miles and it's not reasonable.
That definition does not even remotely apply here. I wasn't referring to anyone accepting the "terms of the other party to a contract". We were talking about "terms" imposed by force by a third party (government).

By that standard, I could use force against my neighbor to prevent him from driving to work, or wearing a blue shirt, since he has other reasonable options.

The use of force by government must be justified. The fact that the recipient of the force "had other options" does not negate the need to justify the use of force. This is not that hard to understand.
 
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<h2>1. Are airport searches a violation of privacy?</h2><p>Airport searches are not a violation of privacy as they are conducted for the safety and security of all passengers. These searches are necessary to prevent potential threats and keep everyone safe.</p><h2>2. How do airport searches work?</h2><p>Airport searches typically involve a combination of metal detectors, full-body scanners, and physical pat-downs. These methods are used to detect any prohibited items or weapons that may be hidden on a person's body or in their luggage.</p><h2>3. Are airport searches effective in preventing security threats?</h2><p>Airport searches have been proven to be effective in preventing security threats. They act as a deterrent for potential attackers and help to identify any dangerous items that may be brought onto a plane.</p><h2>4. Can I refuse an airport search?</h2><p>Passengers have the right to refuse an airport search, but this may result in them being denied entry onto their flight. If a passenger refuses a search, they may also be subject to further questioning and potential delays.</p><h2>5. How can airport searches be improved?</h2><p>Airport searches are constantly evolving and being improved upon. Some potential improvements include the use of advanced technology, such as facial recognition software, to speed up the process and reduce physical contact, as well as increased training for security personnel to ensure that searches are conducted efficiently and respectfully.</p>

1. Are airport searches a violation of privacy?

Airport searches are not a violation of privacy as they are conducted for the safety and security of all passengers. These searches are necessary to prevent potential threats and keep everyone safe.

2. How do airport searches work?

Airport searches typically involve a combination of metal detectors, full-body scanners, and physical pat-downs. These methods are used to detect any prohibited items or weapons that may be hidden on a person's body or in their luggage.

3. Are airport searches effective in preventing security threats?

Airport searches have been proven to be effective in preventing security threats. They act as a deterrent for potential attackers and help to identify any dangerous items that may be brought onto a plane.

4. Can I refuse an airport search?

Passengers have the right to refuse an airport search, but this may result in them being denied entry onto their flight. If a passenger refuses a search, they may also be subject to further questioning and potential delays.

5. How can airport searches be improved?

Airport searches are constantly evolving and being improved upon. Some potential improvements include the use of advanced technology, such as facial recognition software, to speed up the process and reduce physical contact, as well as increased training for security personnel to ensure that searches are conducted efficiently and respectfully.

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