Stuck in AM Radio Mode: Ranting and Raving on the Airwaves

[drankin]

I don't see the point you are trying to make here about Dr. dick. I generally like audiences that have a brain - call me crazy.




Listening to Dr. Cox. rant and rave is not an enrichment of differing opinion. This is not only wrong, but a stupid thing to say. Why don't you tune into radio KKK and hear the lastest about how we are superior to blacks? It's not rational, or logical, but hey its enriching becuase its different, right? ...wrong.

Lot's of Americans also don't want a black man as a president. Why should I care about their opinions? - I don't.

?? Who is "Dr. dick" and "Dr. Cox"? What does the KKK have to do with anything and where can you even tune in and hear anything from them?? Where is your racism rant coming from? If your trying to make an argument against talk radio, you have gone off the road. And your opinions are losing credibility.

 

[Cyrus]

?? Who is "Dr. dick" and "Dr. Cox"? What does the KKK have to do with anything and where can you even tune in and hear anything from them?? Where is your racism rant coming from? If your trying to make an argument against talk radio, you have gone off the road. And your opinions are losing credibility.

Dr. dick, and Dr. Cox, are synonyms for Dr. Weiner, aka. MIKE SAVAGE. The KKK has to do with what I said about listening to other people talk BS because its 'mentally enriching' to hear other points of view. No, its not. Not when the other point of view is BS. I never said you could tune into them (KKK radio), why are you asking me this? No, Mike Savage and his posy of clowns lost credibility long time ago. In fact, they never had crediblity. Which is what I'm trying to tell you...


http://quakeragitator.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/weiner26.jpg

Earth medicine? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Earth medicine? Anyone? Anyone?

Ok so by that logic we shouldn't be here having this discussion, we should all of never been born because all of our ancestors should of dropped dead from some nasty virus, or bacterial infection. However we are here having this debate, why? Because disease and infections did happen and pop up before the 1930 when we got the first modern pharmaceutical drugs.

Granted their are a lot of drugs out on the market today that do a hell of a lot better job then their herbal and naturopathic remedies. But still if they were complete garbage the human race would of never made it down out of the trees.

 

[Cyrus]

Ok so by that logic we shouldn't be here having this discussion, we should all of never been born because all of our ancestors should of dropped dead from some nasty virus, or bacterial infection. However we are here having this debate, why? Because disease and infections did happen and pop up before the 1930 when we got the first modern pharmaceutical drugs.

Granted their are a lot of drugs out on the market today that do a hell of a lot better job then their herbal and naturopathic remedies. But still if they were complete garbage the human race would of never made it down out of the trees.

....? Did you think before posting that?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ok so by that logic we shouldn't be here having this discussion, we should all of never been born because all of our ancestors should of dropped dead from some nasty virus, or bacterial infection. However we are here having this debate, why? Because disease and infections did happen and pop up before the 1930 when we got the first modern pharmaceutical drugs.

Granted their are a lot of drugs out on the market today that do a hell of a lot better job then their herbal and naturopathic remedies. But still if they were complete garbage the human race would of never made it down out of the trees.

I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of species on this planet have no medicine, natural or otherwise, yet have continued to evolve and survive despite this apparently fatal lacking.

 

[Cyrus]

http://quakeragitator.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/weiner26.jpg

It's funny how these guys talk about the Obama "Kool Aid" when this very same guy SOLD kool aid, LITERALLY!

Look at that jacket, my god. Anyone else feel like you're being sold a lemon 76' buick?

I guess he now thinks he's some sort of Don. Don. Weiner.

Your new wardrobe (albeit nice) isn't fooling anyone Dr. hot-dog.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

....? Did you think before posting that?

Did you? From reading your posts it comes across as you think herbal and naturopathic remedies are on the same level as snake oil. Is it that, or is it that Michael Alan Weiner AKA Michael Savage is promoting them that you find to be garbage?

 

[Cyrus]

Did you? From reading your posts it comes across as you think herbal and naturopathic remedies are on the same level as snake oil. Is it that, or is it that Michael Alan Weiner AKA Michael Savage is promoting them that you find to be garbage?

Herbal medicine....lol. Got any herbs to cure cancer?

Let me ask you this: Do you think homeopathy is a legit form of medical treatment?

(My beef with your thread is that it's factually wrong on many many levels)

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Herbal medicine....lol. Got any herbs to cure cancer?

Let me ask you this: Do you think homeopathy is a legit form of medical treatment?

(My beef with your thread is that it's factually wrong on many many levels)

No I don't have or know of an herbal cure for cancer. That is why I said that in most cases modern pharmaceutical drugs do a hell of a lot better job. But if you have heart disease you could be given Foxglove (Digitalis). Or if you take the drugs Crystodigin and Lanoxin you are ingesting a form of Digitalis. This is the biggest example that stands out in my head.

As for homeopathy being a legit form of treatment, I'll give you a resounding hell no. Let's take something and distill and dilute it to oblivion. It will not work.

Naturopathic medicine focuses on using the smallest amount of treatment necessary to solve what is wrong with you.

Should you use an atom bomb or a fly swatter to get a pesky fly in your house? The end result is what you were after, a dead fly. However in one case you have no house left.

And for my enlightenment where was I factually wrong?

 

[Cyrus]

No I don't have or know of an herbal cure for cancer. That is why I said that in most cases modern pharmaceutical drugs do a hell of a lot better job. But if you have heart disease you could be given Foxglove (Digitalis). Or if you take the drugs Crystodigin and Lanoxin you are ingesting a form of Digitalis. This is the biggest example that stands out in my head.

As for homeopathy being a legit form of treatment, I'll give you a resounding hell no. Let's take something and distill and dilute it to oblivion. It will not work.

Naturopathic medicine focuses on using the smallest amount of treatment necessary to solve what is wrong with you.

Should you use an atom bomb or a fly swatter to get a pesky fly in your house? The end result is what you were after, a dead fly. However in one case you have no house left.

And for my enlightenment where was I factually wrong?

I'm glad to hear the bold. However, from your post it seems that you are implying that regular medicine is the 'atom bomb' and that herbal medicine is the fly swatter. If this is what you intended to say, I don't think anyone with a credible medical background would agree.

For the factal part, I don't know of any herbs ever killing a "nasty virus". I could be wrong, but if there has been, I'd like to know.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Coneflower (Echinacea) has shown some potential in combating the common cold, however more research on the active agent and effective dosing levels need to be conducted.
Elderberry (Sambucus) has potential in combating influenza A and B, but it is in the same boat as echinacea from a research standpoint.
German chamomile (Matricaria recutita) is looking like a promising antiviral agent against herpes simplex virus type 2. Not sure on research standpoint.

Also as I was looking up to make sure my information was up-to-date, I did find their are several research projects underway, or concluded that compounds in some herbal/botanical treatments have a noticeable effect on some forms of cancer. However I do not know of any FDA trials underway using these compounds.

No I'm not implying that regular medicine is an atom bomb, what I'm getting at is how their seems to be an institutional precedent for treating a problem with the big guns right out of the gate, when a simpler treatment will do the job. I also have a problem with all of the unnecessary treatment going on. I saw XX, or YY drug advertised on a media form, so by god I need that drug and will not stop till I get it.

 

[Cyrus]

Coneflower (Echinacea) has shown some potential in combating the common cold, however more research on the active agent and effective dosing levels need to be conducted.
Elderberry (Sambucus) has potential in combating influenza A and B, but it is in the same boat as echinacea from a research standpoint.
German chamomile (Matricaria recutita) is looking like a promising antiviral agent against herpes simplex virus type 2. Not sure on research standpoint.

Also as I was looking up to make sure my information was up-to-date, I did find their are several research projects underway, or concluded that compounds in some herbal/botanical treatments have a noticeable effect on some forms of cancer. However I do not know of any FDA trials underway using these compounds.

No I'm not implying that regular medicine is an atom bomb, what I'm getting at is how their seems to be an institutional precedent for treating a problem with the big guns right out of the gate, when a simpler treatment will do the job. I also have a problem with all of the unnecessary treatment going on. I saw XX, or YY drug advertised on a media form, so by god I need that drug and will not stop till I get it.

Where are you getting the facts to back up this statement?

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Where are you getting the facts to back up this statement?

The wrong treatment out of the gate, http://www.webmd.com/news/20070319/antibiotics-overused-sinusitis?src=RSS_PUBLIC"

10 treatments that are overused. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07294/826908-68.stm" . I used this website since I could not get the consumers report link this was based off to show without paying a subscription for archived articles.

Operations that are unnecessary http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/27/healthmag.surgery/index.html"

These are several of the ones that I could find that were not biased. As for where else I'm getting my facts from is from several EMT/Paramedics one who happens to be my girlfriend. So I guess it would be hard to link those conversations on their professional options.

 

[drankin]

The wrong treatment out of the gate, http://www.webmd.com/news/20070319/antibiotics-overused-sinusitis?src=RSS_PUBLIC"

10 treatments that are overused. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07294/826908-68.stm" . I used this website since I could not get the consumers report link this was based off to show without paying a subscription for archived articles.

Operations that are unnecessary http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/27/healthmag.surgery/index.html"

These are several of the ones that I could find that were not biased. As for where else I'm getting my facts from is from several EMT/Paramedics one who happens to be my girlfriend. So I guess it would be hard to link those conversations on their professional options.

Cyrus won't like this. It's giving credibility to Savage's doctorate.

 

[Cyrus]

Coneflower (Echinacea) has shown some potential in combating the common cold, however more research on the active agent and effective dosing levels need to be conducted.
Elderberry (Sambucus) has potential in combating influenza A and B, but it is in the same boat as echinacea from a research standpoint.
German chamomile (Matricaria recutita) is looking like a promising antiviral agent against herpes simplex virus type 2. Not sure on research standpoint.

Also as I was looking up to make sure my information was up-to-date, I did find their are several research projects underway, or concluded that compounds in some herbal/botanical treatments have a noticeable effect on some forms of cancer. However I do not know of any FDA trials underway using these compounds.

I forgot to comment on this part. Basically, I see no evidence that using herbal medicine does anything.

 

[Cyrus]

The wrong treatment out of the gate, http://www.webmd.com/news/20070319/antibiotics-overused-sinusitis?src=RSS_PUBLIC"

10 treatments that are overused. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07294/826908-68.stm" . I used this website since I could not get the consumers report link this was based off to show without paying a subscription for archived articles.

Operations that are unnecessary http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/27/healthmag.surgery/index.html"

These are several of the ones that I could find that were not biased. As for where else I'm getting my facts from is from several EMT/Paramedics one who happens to be my girlfriend. So I guess it would be hard to link those conversations on their professional options.

No offence, but your EMT friend's are not qualified to speak about this. Neither am I, neither are you. Medical doctors are, and this is a question best answered by Moonbear. It's nice having a real doctor around here.

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

I forgot to comment on this part. Basically, I see no evidence that using herbal medicine does anything.

So when there is a new drug out on the horizon that is showing potential, or some new drug formulation to do something beneficial we should disregard it because it is in the research phase of its development? I see a viewpoint that leads to stagnation, and in the medical profession of treating bacteria/virus tantamount to surrender. As for the research status of these herbal/botanical treatments, I'm going off about year old knowledge because it is late and I do not feel like plowing through multiple pages of websites to separate the wheat from the chafe. My point is still valid that herbal/botanical treatments still have a place in modern medicine.

No offence, but your EMT friend's are not qualified to speak about this. Neither am I, neither are you. Medical doctors are, and this is a question best answered by Moonbear. It's nice having a real doctor around here.

Ok so someone who works closely with medical doctors, and who is just as qualified to treat sick and injured people has no place talking about medical practices? I'm at a loss for polite words. Also if you want to refute my points get some articles from accepted non biased sources up or get Moonbear over here. I have yet to see you post any hard evidence. I've done that by posting the names common and Latin of several herbal/botanicals that have shown their potential, and by providing the links to the articles proving my point.

Please stop arguing in hyperbole, which if I remember was what got you in a lather in the first place.

 

[Cyrus]

So when there is a new drug out on the horizon that is showing potential, or some new drug formulation to do something beneficial we should disregard it because it is in the research phase of its development?

Did I say this? No, I did not.

I see a viewpoint that leads to stagnation, and in the medical profession of treating bacteria/virus tantamount to surrender. As for the research status of these herbal/botanical treatments, I'm going off about year old knowledge because it is late and I do not feel like plowing through multiple pages of websites to separate the wheat from the chafe. My point is still valid that herbal/botanical treatments still have a place in modern medicine...

...if they work.

Ok so someone who works closely with medical doctors, and who is just as qualified to treat sick and injured people has no place talking about medical practices? I'm at a loss for polite words.

Nope, a Doctor is qualified to make a statement if a patient needs an operation or medicine. An EMT is not qualified to do this. I don't go down to my local EMT and ask them for medical advice.

Also if you want to refute my points get some articles from accepted non biased sources up or get Moonbear over here. I have yet to see you post any hard evidence.

...because I've made no claims that require evidence. You, on the other hand, did make the claim that medical doctors overprescribe medicines and procedures like 'an atomic bomb' to swat a fly. That is a slap in the face of the medical community that requires a hell of a lot of evidence.

You're trying to do the exact same thing creationsist do. "See, science can't answer this question, therefore all of it is wrong."

In your case, "See, I found one article about using a proceedure too much, all procedures are used too much". It doesn't work that way.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No offence, but your EMT friend's are not qualified to speak about this. Neither am I, neither are you. Medical doctors are, and this is a question best answered by Moonbear. It's nice having a real doctor around here.

Just to be clear, Moonbear is a Biologist, not an M.D.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Did you? From reading your posts it comes across as you think herbal and naturopathic remedies are on the same level as snake oil.

It is one thing to say that herbal and naturapathic remedies are worthy of study, but it is quite another to argue that people should self-medicate with untested drugs - and they are drugs if they do anything at all! He is not selling herbal remedies, he is selling the idea of self-medicating on an experimental basis as an option to proven medicine. So even if he is promoting herbal remedies that work, he's still a crackpot because of the context. At best it is playing Russian roulette with your health. At worst it is a waste of money, a scam, and dangerous.

If you had pneumonia, would you eat moldy bread, or would you get shot of penicillin? Is one the same as the other?

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

Did I say this? No, I did not.

In effect you did. Are you also aware that:

Three quarters of plants that provide active ingredients for prescription drugs came to the attention of researchers because of their use in traditional medicine. http://www.scitopics.com/Drug_Discovery_and_Development_Traditional_Medicine_and_Ethnopharmacology_Perspectives.html"

Among the 120 active compounds currently isolated from the higher plants and widely used in modern medicine today, 80 percent show a positive correlation between their modern therapeutic use and the traditional use of the plants from which they are derived. http://www.jstor.org/pss/3434847"

At least 7,000 medical compounds in the modern pharmaceuticals are derived from plants. http://www.ienica.net/reports/ienicafinalsummaryreport2000-2005.pdf"

...if they work.

Above says that they do.

Nope, a Doctor is qualified to make a statement if a patient needs an operation or medicine. An EMT is not qualified to do this. I don't go down to my local EMT and ask them for medical advice.

I hope you can get a doctor out in the field to help you or make it to the ER then if you ever have a medical emergency then having an EMT/paramedic show up, because they are clearly unqualified when it comes to medical procedures.

...because I've made no claims that require evidence. You, on the other hand, did make the claim that medical doctors overprescribe medicines and procedures like 'an atomic bomb' to swat a fly. That is a slap in the face of the medical community that requires a hell of a lot of evidence.

You're trying to do the exact same thing creationsist do. "See, science can't answer this question, therefore all of it is wrong."

In your case, "See, I found one article about using a proceedure too much, all procedures are used too much". It doesn't work that way.

Your constant clams that herbal/botanical remedies have no place in todays medical world, when you stated that they are "Kool Aid".

Yet you have no problem with slapping other professionals in the face. Also when did I state that science was not able to answer a question, therefore we should throw out the baby with the bath water. I have on several occasions said that science was able to do things better then the old ways, however we should not use the "big guns" right off the bat when there are less evasive ways, and many times cheaper ways to treat the problem. It was three articles all based off separate reports, two of them talked about 10 and 5 procedures done too much. For a grand total of 8 procures that required surgery. As I said they were the unbiased ones I could find without having to plow through a bunch of websites, and reports based off the primary article.

Finally I find this incredibly humorous, you are defending the large pharmaceuticals/insurance companies. What would your liberal brethren of the 60s and 70s have to say about you defending "The Man"?

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

It is one thing to say that herbal and naturapathic remedies are worthy of study, but it is quite another to argue that people should self-medicate with untested drugs - and they are drugs if they do anything at all! He is not selling herbal remedies, he is selling the idea of self-medicating on an experimental basis as an option to proven medicine. So even if he is promoting herbal remedies that work, he's still a crackpot because of the context. At best it is playing Russian roulette with your health. At worst it is a waste of money, a scam, and dangerous.

If you had pneumonia, would you eat moldy bread, or would you get shot of penicillin? Is one the same as the other?

I'm not saying that you should go out and self medicate. You have no way of knowing if you are getting the right thing to help you or if the dosage is correct. Also I completely agree that using untested drugs is like playing Russian roulette with a semi automatic and wet ammo. What I am saying is the herbal/botanical medicine should not be dismissed because it is not the newest wonder drug put out by Merck, Pfizer, etc. Also people who have studied and gotten an P.h.D. in herbal/botanical treatment should not be called a crackpot just because they think the modern medical community is too happy to bring out the "big guns" out of the gate, when something else would work.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm not saying that you should go out and self medicate. You have no way of knowing if you are getting the right thing to help you or if the dosage is correct. Also I completely agree that using untested drugs is like playing Russian roulette with a semi automatic and wet ammo. What I am saying is the herbal/botanical medicine should not be dismissed because it is not the newest wonder drug put out by Merck, Pfizer, etc. Also people who have studied and gotten an P.h.D. in herbal/botanical treatment should not be called a crackpot just because they think the modern medical community is too happy to bring out the "big guns" out of the gate, when something else would work.

I do agree with that...at least in principle. Many medicines find their origins in herbal treatments and remedies recognized by primitive cultures. Consider for example, aspirin.

The Story:
The effects of aspirin-like substances have been known since the ancient Romans recorded the use of the willow bark as a fever fighter. The leaves and bark of the willow tree contain a substance called salicin, a naturally occurring compound similar to acetylsalicylic acid, the chemical name for aspirin.

Even as far back as 400 B.C. Hippocrates recommended a tea made from yellow leaves. It wasn't until the 1800's that scientists discovered what was in the willow tree that relieved pain and reduced fever. The substance was named salicylic acid. But when people suffering from pain took the salicylic acid, it caused sever stomach and mouth irritation.

In 1832, a thirty-seven-year-old French chemist named Charles Gergardt mixed another chemical with the acid and produced good results, but the procedure was difficult and took a lot of time. Gerhardt decided the new compound wasn't practial, so he set aside.

Sixty-five-years later a German chemist, Felix Hoffmann, was searching for something to relieve his father's arthritis. He studied Gerhardt's experiments and "rediscovered" acetylsalicylic acid--or aspirin, as we now know it.

http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/aspirin.htm