American Civilian Beheaded in Iraq

Answers and Replies

  • #2
100
2
1>Well, violence begets violence....and I'm all for returning the favor to al quaeda on this one.

2>This guy should have been sent home sooner, and it's a damn shame he wasn't. It's still not the administrations fault that he is dead, however it does highlight another problem that is going on.

3>I'm presently waiting for a response on this subject from an Islamic board I frequent :eek: I will post the general thoughts of people in the region once I get something :)
 
  • #3
adrenaline
Science Advisor
100
3
How tragic. I can't begin to offer a commentary. Perhaps the adage Two wrongs don't make a right, fits. However, at the same time it is not unexpected.
 
  • #4
18,054
7,414
Terrible, completely digusting, thats all you can say. I think CNN needs to get that photo off the frontpage, hardly respectful to the berg family with the guy holding the knife about to behead him.
 
  • #5
138
0
Indeed a terrible act. Killing an innocent man. And it was not the mencenary type of contractor.

This act was also symbolic, as the orange cloths reflect, an allusion to Gitmo.

An arabic news website wrote:

quote "On the Web site, one of the executioners read a statement: "For the mothers and wives of US troops, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused."

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

In the video, the speaker threatened both President Bush and Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf. "As for you Bush ... expect severe days. You and your troops will regret the day you stepped into the land of Iraq," he said. He described Musharraf as "a traitor agent."
 
  • #6
selfAdjoint
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
6,786
7
And it was about the stupidest thing they could do. If they had just let us stew in our own Abu Ghreb juices, we might have wound up going away sooner. But now the US population that was beginning to turn against the war will accept the countervailing horrors as a wash and the Bush administration will weather the crisis and forge on with their impossible dream.

Napoleon: "It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder!"
 
  • #7
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bastards :mad:
 
  • #8
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Yes, it is indeed horrible. For those of you feeling anger and hatred, remember, this is what Iraqis feel about all the dead Iraqis.

Before you go loony and scream "Anti-American!", no, I do not approve of such acts. And before you whinge about me making political points out of a death, well, everyone has been doing that for months in this political forum.

In short:
- The act is horrible.
- The act is just as horrible as every other death resulting from this illegal war.
- All those deaths are wrong.
- Hopefully those who did not previously empathise with the anger of some Iraqis (over 8,000 of them were killed, remember) may now do so.
 
  • #9
18,054
7,414
Adam said:
Yes, it is indeed horrible. For those of you feeling anger and hatred, remember, this is what Iraqis feel about all the dead Iraqis.
When did I miss the part where we kidnap iraqi civs and then taped their beheading?
 
  • #10
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Greg Bernhardt said:
When did I miss the part where we kidnap iraqi civs and then taped their beheading?
Apparently you didn't watch the invasion, when the USA news services were broadcasting the bombing of Baghdad, during which a huge number of civilians died. Or are you suggesting that blowing them up with bombs is somehow less horrible that using knives? Do I need to post a few pictures of the splattered body-parts from the bombings, to remind people? How about that kid Ali with his arms missing?
 
  • #11
117
16
Firstly, what happened was quite disgusting and I can never ever say that anybody deserved it!

However, I'd like to point out the initial reaction of a couple of my friends (anti-war but they ain't into politics so we could call them the general public.)

When we heard the news on the radio this morning, my friends laughed and said that the Americans deserved it!

It's odd that this "war" has degraded into something so bad that we can't fathom how filthy it will get. The bounds of what is acceptable in todays world has been pushed so much that anyone with some moral sense is totally dumbfounded.

I think the main point here is that no more is "morals" the reason to do or not do anything. The world has degraded to such an extent that one man can start a war even though nobody else wants it, that PoW's are treated worse than animals, that people are beheaded live on-line.

The scary bit is the fact that you know have to ask: "What's next?" with the answer being one that you really rather not know.
 
  • #12
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2
Shahil said:
Firstly, what happened was quite disgusting and I can never ever say that anybody deserved it!

However, I'd like to point out the initial reaction of a couple of my friends (anti-war but they ain't into politics so we could call them the general public.)

When we heard the news on the radio this morning, my friends laughed and said that the Americans deserved it!
Your friend's exemplify the exact reasoning that we don't much care what the rest of the world has to say to us. We receive the same hatred no matter what. And it's ironic that it too is highly numbing.

I do disagree with the rest of your assessment on the situatoin. You claim no one else wanted it. You claim it has nothing to do with morals.

I wanted this war. I wanted Saddam out of power and the Iraqi people given their country back. Many people did!! There are tons of other reasons for this, but one of them is righting a past wrong (supporting Saddam inthe first place). I can say that perhaps morals are gone for many in Government. I am sure that many folks around the world were against the war, because they are simply against war. I am not here to argue that, it's for another thread. What I AM SURE OF is the intentions of the Russian and French governments in why they did not want a war - and it has nothing to do with the poor ol' Iraqi people. There is no morals there. I am sure of, atleast, Mr. Cheney's interest in the war profiteering, no matter what his intentions may have been beforehand. I would agree that morals in government are degraded, but I fully disagree that they are across the general populous so much so that doing something is not based on right and wrong, but full self interest. No majority in my country sat around thinking "hey, maybe if we invade Iraq, we can see some bombs go off! Awesome!"

POWs and beheadings have happened for years! this is nothing new.

The answer to "What's next?", atleast in Iraq, will depend on the events between now and next January. I would rather know - I'm not afraid of the truth, no matter how ugly.
 
  • #13
100
2
Adam said:
Apparently you didn't watch the invasion, when the USA news services were broadcasting the bombing of Baghdad, during which a huge number of civilians died. Or are you suggesting that blowing them up with bombs is somehow less horrible that using knives? Do I need to post a few pictures of the splattered body-parts from the bombings, to remind people? How about that kid Ali with his arms missing?

I will argue such a thing. I would rather be blown up than have my head cut off.
Ali is less vindictive than you are.
 
  • #14
22
0
Okay, I'd argue that. I'm not vindictive at all. And I'm glad you think those thousands of Iraqi civilians had pleasant, acceptable deaths.
 
  • #15
5
0
Adam said:
Yes, it is indeed horrible. For those of you feeling anger and hatred, remember, this is what Iraqis feel about all the dead Iraqis.

Before you go loony and scream "Anti-American!", no, I do not approve of such acts. And before you whinge about me making political points out of a death, well, everyone has been doing that for months in this political forum.

In short:
- The act is horrible.
- The act is just as horrible as every other death resulting from this illegal war.
- All those deaths are wrong.
- Hopefully those who did not previously empathise with the anger of some Iraqis (over 8,000 of them were killed, remember) may now do so.
Adam i think youve just shown your distorted view of todays reality. Today, when an Iraqi civilian is killed or undressed, it appears on frontpages around the world. When an American is beheaded, he might have deserved it AND, perhaps the Americans will learn from it (perhaps they now suddenly have empathy). BUT (mentioned lastly) this beheading is wrong.
Adam, if you really think this beheading is wrong i expect nothing less from you then 25 threads about it in the following weeks and reference to it in every post you make.
What i suspect tho is that you and other regulars will wisp this away saying things like... this death is no worse than all others... its wrong but not suprising... maybe they learn from it... this is caused by Gitmo....

Maybe YOU will learn something from what the Americans do in Gitmo and Abu ghraib, so you will have some empathy for the Americans again. When the Americans cut off an Iraqis head, maybe you will get empathy for the American doing it? How in allahs name did you even think this beheading video would increase our empathy for Iraqis?

In the video, these terrorists say they offered an exchange with Abu graib prisoners. A lie to divide you. No doubt some of you regulars will become even more pissed off at the Americans for not exchanging innocent iraqi prisoners with this American. Its one of the many vague conspiracy theories that clouds your mind and feeds your anger.
In the video, these terrorists mention the abuse in abu graib. A lie to divide you. Do you seriously think this wouldnt have happened if the abuse pictures werent released? This kind of thing happened before Iraq, before Afghanistan ,before 911, and BEFORE BUSH.
In the video, these terrorists mention "other prisons" where abuse (might) go on. A lie to divide you, and seeing Pelas begin about Gitmo, it seems to have worked.

I cannot believe how youre being played by the media and these false claims and conspiracy theories evrywhere.
I think Towsend said it right in his other post: you opened your mind so far that it fell out. Empathy for the enemy does not make them right. I have no doubt i have far greater understanding of the enemy than you Adam, but i also understand the American side, a side you should explore before opening your mouth.
 
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  • #16
100
2
Adam said:
And I'm glad you think those thousands of Iraqi civilians had pleasant, acceptable deaths.
Holding true to your user text I see.
 
  • #17
Njorl
Science Advisor
258
10
selfAdjoint said:
And it was about the stupidest thing they could do. If they had just let us stew in our own Abu Ghreb juices, we might have wound up going away sooner. But now the US population that was beginning to turn against the war will accept the countervailing horrors as a wash and the Bush administration will weather the crisis and forge on with their impossible dream.

Napoleon: "It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder!"
You're assuming they want us to leave. While most Iraqi insurgents do want us to leave, I'm not certain Al Qaeda shares that goal, despite their protestations. The longer we are there, the more secular Sunni's will abandon the Baathists and join fundamentalist Sunni movements, like Al Qaeda.

Njorl
 
  • #18
22
0
studentx

When an American is beheaded, he might have deserved it AND, perhaps the Americans will learn from it (perhaps they now suddenly have empathy). BUT (mentioned lastly) this beheading is wrong.
Are you saying the man deserved it? I'm quite sure I didn't say that.

Adam, if you really think this beheading is wrong i expect nothing less from you then 25 threads about it in the following weeks and reference to it in every post you make.
You can expect whatever you like. Your expectations have nothing to do with me.

What i suspect tho is that you and other regulars will wisp this away saying things like... this death is no worse than all others... its wrong but not suprising... maybe they learn from it... this is caused by Gitmo....
1) It is no worse than other deaths. They are all horrible, and unecessary.

2) I doubt anyone will learn anything from it. People are too stupid.

3) It is caused by greed.

Maybe YOU will learn something from what the Americans do in Gitmo and Abu ghraib, so you will have some empathy for the Americans again.
How would seeing Americans abuse POWs create more empathy toward Americans? When the Americans cut off an Iraqis head, maybe you will get empathy for the American doing it? How in allahs name did you even think this beheading video would increase our empathy for Iraqis?
[/quote]
Because some of you may be capable of realising that "they" are just another "us". The Iraqis who lost family members during the invasion are exactly the same as you, except that they now live in a nation occupied by a foreign military force. Some few people there are complete whackos, just as some people in the USA are complete whackos, like Tim McVeigh.

Of course, some of you will ignore reality and stick with the "us" and "them" mentality.

In the video, these terrorists say they offered an exchange with Abu graib prisoners. A lie to divide you.
On what evidence to you base the assertion that it was a lie?

No doubt some of you regulars will become even more pissed off at the Americans for not exchanging innocent iraqi prisoners with this American.
Actually I'm surprised that the US military in Iraq kept the man there against his will. I believe the parents are also quite upset about that.

Its one of the many vague conspiracy theories that clouds your mind and feeds your anger.
1) On what do you base the assertion that it is a conspiracy theory?

2) On what do you base the assertion that I feel any anger?

In the video, these terrorists mention the abuse in abu graib. A lie to divide you.
Which part exactly is a lie? The existence of Abu Graib? Odd, since the soldiers stationed there, and starring in the pictures, admit to what happened.

Do you seriously think this wouldnt have happened if the abuse pictures werent released? This kind of thing happened before Iraq, before Afghanistan ,before 911, and BEFORE BUSH.
Before Bush, that chap was alive. So were 8,000+ Iraqi civilians. Simple enough.

In the video, these terrorists mention "other prisons" where abuse (might) go on. A lie to divide you, and seeing Pelas begin about Gitmo, it seems to have worked.
1) On what evidence to you base the assertion that it was a lie?

2) Note that the man in charge of Abu Graib was put in charge there, transferred from Cuba, specifically because he was known to be able to produce results form his interrogation techniques.

I cannot believe how youre being played by the media and these false claims and conspiracy theories evrywhere.
I can not believe how many unsupported assertions you're making.

I think Towsend said it right in his other post: you opened your mind so far that it fell out.
An ad hominem now? If you really are a student, start paying attention in your classes.

Empathy for the enemy does not make them right.
1) Did I once suggest you should have empathy for the man weilding the knife?

2) Who exactly do you consider "the enemy"?

I have no doubt i have far greater understanding of the enemy than you Adam, but i also understand the American side, a side you should explore before opening your mouth.
Wow. More assumptions. You're doing well. Upon what do you abse these latest assumptions?
 
  • #19
100
2
Adam said:
Before Bush, that chap was alive. So were 8,000+ Iraqi civilians. Simple enough.
:rofl: :rofl: you've got to be kidding me Adam. I know you can do better than that! Really!
 
  • #20
100
2
Njorl said:
You're assuming they want us to leave. While most Iraqi insurgents do want us to leave, I'm not certain Al Qaeda shares that goal, despite their protestations. The longer we are there, the more secular Sunni's will abandon the Baathists and join fundamentalist Sunni movements, like Al Qaeda.

Njorl
So it's reverse psychology??

Chicago, L.A. towers were next targets


By Paul Martin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


LONDON — Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, al Qaeda's purported operations chief, has told U.S. interrogators that the group had been planning attacks on the Library Tower in Los Angeles and the Sears Tower in Chicago on the heels of the September 11, 2001, terror strikes.
Those plans were aborted mainly because of the decisive U.S. response to the New York and Washington attacks, which disrupted the terrorist organization's plans so thoroughly that it could not proceed, according to transcripts of his conversations with interrogators.
Mohammed told interrogators that he and Ramzi Yousuf, his nephew who was behind an earlier attack on the World Trade Center in 1993, had leafed through almanacs of American skyscrapers when planning the first operation.
"We were looking for symbols of economic might," he told his captors.
He specifically mentioned as potential targets the Library Tower in Los Angeles, which was "blown up" in the film "Independence Day," and the Sears Tower in Chicago.
A British newspaper over the weekend published a detailed account that it said was taken from transcripts of the interrogation of Mohammed, who was captured last year in Pakistan.
The transcripts are prefaced with a warning that Mohammed, the most senior al Qaeda member yet to be caught, "has been known to withhold information or deliberately mislead."
According to the transcript, Mohammed has maintained that Zacarias Moussaoui, the French-Moroccan facing trial in the United States as the "20th hijacker," had been sent to a flight school in Minnesota to train for a West Coast attack.
That would buttress Moussaoui's contention that he is improperly charged with participation in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, because he was preparing for a different al Qaeda operation.
The new transcripts confirm an earlier report by the Associated Press that al Qaeda originally had planned to crash hijacked airliners into targets on both coasts.
The London Sunday Times said the transcripts covered interrogations conducted during a period of four months after a bleary-eyed Mohammed was captured in a pre-dawn raid a little more than a year ago.
The confessions reveal that planning for the September 11 attacks started much earlier and was more elaborate than previously thought.
"The original plan was for a two-pronged attack with five targets on the East Coast of America and five on the West Coast," he told interrogators, according to the transcript.
"We talked about hitting California as it was America's richest state, and [al Qaeda leader Osama] bin Laden had talked about economic targets."
He is reported to have said that bin Laden, who like Mohammed had studied engineering, vetoed simultaneous coast-to-coast attacks, arguing that "it would be too difficult to synchronize."
Mohammed then decided to conduct two waves of attacks, hitting the East Coast first and following up with a second series of attacks.
"Osama had said the second wave should focus on the West Coast," he reportedly said.
But the terrorists seem to have been surprised by the strength of the American reaction to the September 11 attacks.
"Afterwards, we never got time to catch our breath, we were immediately on the run," Mohammed is quoted as saying.
Al Qaeda's communications network was severely disrupted, he said. Operatives could no longer use satellite phones and had to rely on couriers, although they continued to use Internet chat rooms.
"Before September 11, we could dispatch operatives with the expectation of follow-up contact, but after October 7 [when U.S. bombing started in Afghanistan], that changed 180 degrees. There was no longer a war room ... and operatives had more autonomy."
Mohammed told interrogators that he remained in Pakistan for 10 days after September 11, 2001, then went to Afghanistan to find bin Laden.
When he was captured in March last year in the home of a microbiologist in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, the 37-year-old was unshaven and wearing a baggy vest.
The interrogation reports also indicate that Mohammed had introduced bin Laden to Hambali, the Indonesian militant accused in the terror attack that killed more than 200 people in Bali, Indonesia, in October 2002.
Mohammed was running a hostel filtering al Qaeda recruits in Peshawar, Pakistan, when he scouted Hambali, whose real name is Riduan Ismuddin and who ran the Islamist group Jemaah Islamiyah in Asia.
Later, Mohammed moved to Karachi, Pakistan. There, posing as a businessman importing holy water from Mecca, Saudi Arabia, he acted as a fund-raiser and intermediary between militants and sponsors in the Gulf.
His first planned anti-American attack was Operation Bojinka (Serbo-Croatian for "big bang") — a plot to blow up 12 U.S. airliners over the Pacific.
Yousuf and Hambali were involved in the scheme, which failed when the conspirators' Manila bomb factory caught fire. The men fled to Pakistan, where Yousuf was arrested.
Mr. Mohammed seems to think our strategy is good. :confused:
 
  • #21
5
0
Adam your desperately twisting it into a bewildered future strawman. Out of respect for all terrorist victims, i will let you go this time
 
  • #22
5
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phatmonky said:
So it's reverse psychology??



Mr. Mohammed seems to think our strategy is good. :confused:
Osama once said, he would lure the Americans into the middle east and engage them there (easier to engage them there than in the USA). Perhaps the foreign fighters in Iraq want the Americans to stay so they can keep attacking them. But if the Americans plant a new gov in Iraq, they lose a possible new war room. If i was a terrorist, i would be very confused and blow myself up
 
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  • #23
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phatmonky said:
:rofl: :rofl: you've got to be kidding me Adam. I know you can do better than that! Really!
What better argument can there be than lives and deaths?
 
  • #24
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studentx said:
Adam your desperately twisting it into a bewildered future strawman. Out of respect for all terrorist victims, i will let you go this time
In other words, your entire previous post was demonstrated to be nothing, completely empty, and you can't support your assertions.
 
  • #25
jimmy p
Gold Member
358
31
I dont think the extremists are making it easier on themselves... as someone said before, the situation had died down enough that people were nit-picking and finding faults and becoming very anti-war. Now they have just restoked the flames of hatred. I notice that the executioners were too cowardly to show their faces however. Just happy to hide in the shadows.

I dont know what they are trying to prove by this act. To me it seems they kill the odd soldier or westerner and generally do a lot of fist shaking and hate-mongering, but for all of this not much has occurred. OBL has said that it is easier to fight in the Middle East. So far he hasnt proved it and now this event is going to make life for them that bit harder.

I just dont know what to make of this war anymore.
 

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