1>Well, violence begets violence....and I'm all for returning the favor to al quaeda on this one.
2>This guy should have been sent home sooner, and it's a damn shame he wasn't. It's still not the administrations fault that he is dead, however it does highlight another problem that is going on.
3>I'm presently waiting for a response on this subject from an Islamic board I frequent I will post the general thoughts of people in the region once I get something :)
How tragic. I can't begin to offer a commentary. Perhaps the adage Two wrongs don't make a right, fits. However, at the same time it is not unexpected.
Terrible, completely digusting, thats all you can say. I think CNN needs to get that photo off the frontpage, hardly respectful to the berg family with the guy holding the knife about to behead him.
Indeed a terrible act. Killing an innocent man. And it was not the mencenary type of contractor.
This act was also symbolic, as the orange cloths reflect, an allusion to Gitmo.
An arabic news website wrote:
quote "On the Web site, one of the executioners read a statement: "For the mothers and wives of US troops, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused."
"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."
In the video, the speaker threatened both President Bush and Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf. "As for you Bush ... expect severe days. You and your troops will regret the day you stepped into the land of Iraq," he said. He described Musharraf as "a traitor agent."
And it was about the stupidest thing they could do. If they had just let us stew in our own Abu Ghreb juices, we might have wound up going away sooner. But now the US population that was beginning to turn against the war will accept the countervailing horrors as a wash and the Bush administration will weather the crisis and forge on with their impossible dream.
Napoleon: "It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder!"
Yes, it is indeed horrible. For those of you feeling anger and hatred, remember, this is what Iraqis feel about all the dead Iraqis.
Before you go loony and scream "Anti-American!", no, I do not approve of such acts. And before you whinge about me making political points out of a death, well, everyone has been doing that for months in this political forum.
- The act is horrible.
- The act is just as horrible as every other death resulting from this illegal war.
- All those deaths are wrong.
- Hopefully those who did not previously empathise with the anger of some Iraqis (over 8,000 of them were killed, remember) may now do so.
When did I miss the part where we kidnap iraqi civs and then taped their beheading?
Apparently you didn't watch the invasion, when the USA news services were broadcasting the bombing of Baghdad, during which a huge number of civilians died. Or are you suggesting that blowing them up with bombs is somehow less horrible that using knives? Do I need to post a few pictures of the splattered body-parts from the bombings, to remind people? How about that kid Ali with his arms missing?
Firstly, what happened was quite disgusting and I can never ever say that anybody deserved it!
However, I'd like to point out the initial reaction of a couple of my friends (anti-war but they ain't into politics so we could call them the general public.)
When we heard the news on the radio this morning, my friends laughed and said that the Americans deserved it!
It's odd that this "war" has degraded into something so bad that we can't fathom how filthy it will get. The bounds of what is acceptable in todays world has been pushed so much that anyone with some moral sense is totally dumbfounded.
I think the main point here is that no more is "morals" the reason to do or not do anything. The world has degraded to such an extent that one man can start a war even though nobody else wants it, that PoW's are treated worse than animals, that people are beheaded live on-line.
The scary bit is the fact that you know have to ask: "What's next?" with the answer being one that you really rather not know.
Your friend's exemplify the exact reasoning that we don't much care what the rest of the world has to say to us. We receive the same hatred no matter what. And it's ironic that it too is highly numbing.
I do disagree with the rest of your assessment on the situatoin. You claim no one else wanted it. You claim it has nothing to do with morals.
I wanted this war. I wanted Saddam out of power and the Iraqi people given their country back. Many people did!! There are tons of other reasons for this, but one of them is righting a past wrong (supporting Saddam inthe first place). I can say that perhaps morals are gone for many in Government. I am sure that many folks around the world were against the war, because they are simply against war. I am not here to argue that, it's for another thread. What I AM SURE OF is the intentions of the Russian and French governments in why they did not want a war - and it has nothing to do with the poor ol' Iraqi people. There is no morals there. I am sure of, atleast, Mr. Cheney's interest in the war profiteering, no matter what his intentions may have been beforehand. I would agree that morals in government are degraded, but I fully disagree that they are across the general populous so much so that doing something is not based on right and wrong, but full self interest. No majority in my country sat around thinking "hey, maybe if we invade Iraq, we can see some bombs go off! Awesome!"
POWs and beheadings have happened for years! this is nothing new.
The answer to "What's next?", atleast in Iraq, will depend on the events between now and next January. I would rather know - I'm not afraid of the truth, no matter how ugly.
I will argue such a thing. I would rather be blown up than have my head cut off.
Ali is less vindictive than you are.
Okay, I'd argue that. I'm not vindictive at all. And I'm glad you think those thousands of Iraqi civilians had pleasant, acceptable deaths.
Adam i think youve just shown your distorted view of todays reality. Today, when an Iraqi civilian is killed or undressed, it appears on frontpages around the world. When an American is beheaded, he might have deserved it AND, perhaps the Americans will learn from it (perhaps they now suddenly have empathy). BUT (mentioned lastly) this beheading is wrong.
Adam, if you really think this beheading is wrong i expect nothing less from you then 25 threads about it in the following weeks and reference to it in every post you make.
What i suspect tho is that you and other regulars will wisp this away saying things like... this death is no worse than all others... its wrong but not suprising... maybe they learn from it... this is caused by Gitmo....
Maybe YOU will learn something from what the Americans do in Gitmo and Abu ghraib, so you will have some empathy for the Americans again. When the Americans cut off an Iraqis head, maybe you will get empathy for the American doing it? How in allahs name did you even think this beheading video would increase our empathy for Iraqis?
In the video, these terrorists say they offered an exchange with Abu graib prisoners. A lie to divide you. No doubt some of you regulars will become even more pissed off at the Americans for not exchanging innocent iraqi prisoners with this American. Its one of the many vague conspiracy theories that clouds your mind and feeds your anger.
In the video, these terrorists mention the abuse in abu graib. A lie to divide you. Do you seriously think this wouldnt have happened if the abuse pictures werent released? This kind of thing happened before Iraq, before Afghanistan ,before 911, and BEFORE BUSH.
In the video, these terrorists mention "other prisons" where abuse (might) go on. A lie to divide you, and seeing Pelas begin about Gitmo, it seems to have worked.
I cannot believe how youre being played by the media and these false claims and conspiracy theories evrywhere.
I think Towsend said it right in his other post: you opened your mind so far that it fell out. Empathy for the enemy does not make them right. I have no doubt i have far greater understanding of the enemy than you Adam, but i also understand the American side, a side you should explore before opening your mouth.
Holding true to your user text I see.
You're assuming they want us to leave. While most Iraqi insurgents do want us to leave, I'm not certain Al Qaeda shares that goal, despite their protestations. The longer we are there, the more secular Sunni's will abandon the Baathists and join fundamentalist Sunni movements, like Al Qaeda.
Are you saying the man deserved it? I'm quite sure I didn't say that.
You can expect whatever you like. Your expectations have nothing to do with me.
1) It is no worse than other deaths. They are all horrible, and unecessary.
2) I doubt anyone will learn anything from it. People are too stupid.
3) It is caused by greed.
How would seeing Americans abuse POWs create more empathy toward Americans? When the Americans cut off an Iraqis head, maybe you will get empathy for the American doing it? How in allahs name did you even think this beheading video would increase our empathy for Iraqis?
Because some of you may be capable of realising that "they" are just another "us". The Iraqis who lost family members during the invasion are exactly the same as you, except that they now live in a nation occupied by a foreign military force. Some few people there are complete whackos, just as some people in the USA are complete whackos, like Tim McVeigh.
Of course, some of you will ignore reality and stick with the "us" and "them" mentality.
On what evidence to you base the assertion that it was a lie?
Actually I'm surprised that the US military in Iraq kept the man there against his will. I believe the parents are also quite upset about that.
1) On what do you base the assertion that it is a conspiracy theory?
2) On what do you base the assertion that I feel any anger?
Which part exactly is a lie? The existence of Abu Graib? Odd, since the soldiers stationed there, and starring in the pictures, admit to what happened.
Before Bush, that chap was alive. So were 8,000+ Iraqi civilians. Simple enough.
1) On what evidence to you base the assertion that it was a lie?
2) Note that the man in charge of Abu Graib was put in charge there, transferred from Cuba, specifically because he was known to be able to produce results form his interrogation techniques.
I can not believe how many unsupported assertions you're making.
An ad hominem now? If you really are a student, start paying attention in your classes.
1) Did I once suggest you should have empathy for the man weilding the knife?
2) Who exactly do you consider "the enemy"?
Wow. More assumptions. You're doing well. Upon what do you abse these latest assumptions?
:rofl: :rofl: you've got to be kidding me Adam. I know you can do better than that! Really!
So it's reverse psychology??
Mr. Mohammed seems to think our strategy is good.
Adam your desperately twisting it into a bewildered future strawman. Out of respect for all terrorist victims, i will let you go this time
Osama once said, he would lure the Americans into the middle east and engage them there (easier to engage them there than in the USA). Perhaps the foreign fighters in Iraq want the Americans to stay so they can keep attacking them. But if the Americans plant a new gov in Iraq, they lose a possible new war room. If i was a terrorist, i would be very confused and blow myself up
What better argument can there be than lives and deaths?
In other words, your entire previous post was demonstrated to be nothing, completely empty, and you can't support your assertions.
I dont think the extremists are making it easier on themselves... as someone said before, the situation had died down enough that people were nit-picking and finding faults and becoming very anti-war. Now they have just restoked the flames of hatred. I notice that the executioners were too cowardly to show their faces however. Just happy to hide in the shadows.
I dont know what they are trying to prove by this act. To me it seems they kill the odd soldier or westerner and generally do a lot of fist shaking and hate-mongering, but for all of this not much has occurred. OBL has said that it is easier to fight in the Middle East. So far he hasnt proved it and now this event is going to make life for them that bit harder.
I just dont know what to make of this war anymore.
Separate names with a comma.