American Terrorism

  • #1
The Smoking Man
47
0
Russ,

Rather than Hijack your thread re:the 'Poll', I am creating a related link here:

Just another little observation about 'suicidal behaviour' and 'military mentality'.

Russ, you equate what these people do in the name of their cause as 'immoral'.

How do you explain the USA and their attitude to the Tuskeegee Airmen and the venerial disease scandle, the deliberate collaberation of McArthur in not prosecuting Iishi over his activities in China so that he could gain information for the bio-weapons later used in Korea, and activities such as http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1121638810195&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News&pubid=968163964505&StarSource=email&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes gained by other 'civil' western states?

You mentioned 'morality' of military technique in many of your posts.

You are aware that bioweapons were banned in 1925 under the Geneva Protocols and that the USA and their new ally Japan (currently seeking a SC veto) have been the world's largest producers of these weapons since that time?

(Well, where do you think the 'terrorists' got their cannister of sarin gas that was used in the Tokyo subway!? :biggrin:)

You DO keep on mentioning 'morality' in reference to war/terrorism.

We are after all discussing the people who supplied the technology and the know how to Saddam to produce the gasses he used on the Kurds and the Iranians notto mention the satellite intel on the best times, weather conditions and troop movements... Yes ... the fruits of illegal research don't seem to fall far from the tree and what is this illegal substance but an act of terrorism?

Was Saddam field testing your bio-tech for you?
 

Answers and Replies

  • #2
The Smoking Man said:
Russ,

We are after all discussing the people who supplied the technology and the know how to Saddam to produce the gasses he used on the Kurds and the Iranians notto mention the satellite intel on the best times, weather conditions and troop movements... Yes ... the fruits of illegal research don't seem to fall far from the tree and what is this illegal substance but an act of terrorism?

Was Saddam field testing your bio-tech for you?
TSM, to pre-empt the inevitable demands you're going to get to provide evidence for something that is so well-known, I found this information (from a US news source: Washington Post, Monday, December 30, 2002 - perhaps acceptably credible? Sorry, I did search for a Fox News source, but Fox just doesn't seem to report on these things, for some odd reason :rolleyes: ):
....Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations. Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.

The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait -- which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of chemical and biological precursors -- is a topical example of the underside of U.S. foreign policy. It is a world in which deals can be struck with dictators, human rights violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend."....

...The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.

....According to a sworn court affidavit prepared by Teicher in 1995, the United States "actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required." Teicher said in the affidavit that former CIA director William Casey used a Chilean company, Cardoen, to supply Iraq with cluster bombs that could be used to disrupt the Iranian human wave attacks. Teicher refuses to discuss the affidavit.

....When United Nations weapons inspectors were allowed into Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, they compiled long lists of chemicals, missile components, and computers from American suppliers, including such household names as Union Carbide and Honeywell, which were being used for military purposes.

A 1994 investigation by the Senate Banking Committee turned up dozens of biological agents shipped to Iraq during the mid-'80s under license from the Commerce Department, including various strains of anthrax, subsequently identified by the Pentagon as a key component of the Iraqi biological warfare program. The Commerce Department also approved the export of insecticides to Iraq, despite widespread suspicions that they were being used for chemical warfare.

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29¬Found=true
 
  • #3
Burnsys
64
0
ohhh i am tied of posting this information in the forum, i even post fragments of the desclasified documents, but it looks like if they don't want to see this... they close theyr eyes... or get answers like: "You understand nothing, in that time iran was more evil", haha, anyway i think we can start posting all terrrorist suported now and before by america.
We can start with luis posadas carriles, agent of the cia who blown an airplaine full of civilians... or Islam Karimov (New rumsfeld buddy) who boils people alive...
 
  • #4
Here's another example of the 'civilised' western countries total disregard for foreign lives;
AUCKLAND (AFP) Legacy of Pacific nuclear testing leaves scar on Pacific - A decade after the last nuclear test was held in the Pacific, islanders are still living with the legacy of hundreds of atmospheric and underground tests while fighting for compensation and recognition of radiation-related health problems.

Hundreds of nuclear tests were conducted in the Pacific Islands by the US, France and Britain between 1946 and 1996.

In the central Pacific the US conducted more than 100 tests, 67 of them at Bikini and Enewetak atolls in the Marshall Islands, a group of atolls about halfway between Australian and Hawaii and home to 55,000 people. Bikini, Enewetak and the nearby Rongelap atolls had to be evacuated due to the massive fallout from the tests and the Bikini and Rongolap islanders are yet to permanently return home.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050708/sc_afp/environmentrainbow_050708171848 [Broken]
 
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  • #5
Burnsys said:
ohhh i am tied of posting this information in the forum, i even post fragments of the desclasified documents, but it looks like if they don't want to see this... they close theyr eyes... or get answers like: "You understand nothing, in that time iran was more evil"...
I know the feeling, Burnsys. These discussions seem to have nothing to do with a search for 'truth' based on 'evidence' - people continue to believe what they want to believe despite whatever evidence they are presented with. This is tiresome - it is obvious that the 'discussions' boil down to ideological beliefs for some people: whatever X does is 'good', whatever Y does is 'bad' - how very simplistic to 'analyse' along these lines; how childish!
 
  • #6
Burnsys
64
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More Bombs testing in foreing soil:

Since 1938, the US Navy has been acquiring land in Vieques by expropriation. The Navy controls 26,000 of the Island's 33,000 acres. Located at the eastern and western sections of the island, the US Navy uses 75% percent of the Island's soil for war maneuvers, and bomb storage

The bombing had changed the natural topography of the place. Everywhere there were small lakes, filled with water. In reality they were bomb craters. Fortunately in the few months protesters have impeded the bombing nature has returned. The green field in which I stood had an interesting peculiarity: there were no big trees, only small brush. The trees had not had time to grow. Those who had been there before recalled the total desolation that they had found only a few months ago. It was all a muddy desert, with no signs of life.

The next day after waking up, a few people took me to see "Monte David" one of the most polluted places in the whole island. Monte David is about 30 minutes away from "La escuelita", the camp where I was staying. The road that goes there is full of debris. However, the debris here was more impressive than the one I had seen the day before. Before long parachutes with cluster bombs, and five or 6 foot long bullets, the size of a medium person, were commonplace. Frequently one encounters small ponds that have been either altered or created by the bombing. The frequent explosions create huge holes that are then filled with water. If one looks closely, the holes are evidently too symmetric to be natural

In April 19, 1999 two F-18 airplanes threw two bombs, 500 pounds each, outside their target area and killed David Sanes, a Vieques civilian, and injured other four, including one soldier. This event has once more rendered evident the danger that the presence of the US navy represents for the people of Vieques. Once more, the people from Vieques, from Puerto Rico in general, and all concerned citizens of the globe demand the immediate halt to any war practices and the eventual demilitarization of all the territory of Vieques
 
  • #7
quetzalcoatl9
537
1
alexandra said:
I know the feeling, Burnsys. These discussions seem to have nothing to do with a search for 'truth' based on 'evidence' - people continue to believe what they want to believe despite whatever evidence they are presented with. This is tiresome - it is obvious that the 'discussions' boil down to ideological beliefs for some people: whatever X does is 'good', whatever Y does is 'bad' - how very simplistic to 'analyse' along these lines; how childish!

isn't this the pot calling the kettle black vis a vi your discussions on communism vs. capitalism?
 
  • #8
An extract from Wikipedia:

In 1996, the U.S. House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence issued a congressional report estimating that the clandestine service part of the intelligence community "easily" breaks "extremely serious laws" in countries around the world, 100,000 times every year. [2]

In a briefing held September 15, 2001 George Tenet presented the Worldwide Attack Matrix, a "top-secret" document describing covert CIA anti-terror operations in 80 countries in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. The actions, underway or being recommended, would range from "routine propaganda to lethal covert action in preparation for military attacks". The plans, if carried out, "would give the CIA the broadest and most lethal authority in its history". [3]
...
The activities of the CIA have caused considerable political controversy both in the United States and in other countries, often nominally friendly to the United States, where the agency has operated (or been alleged to.) Particularly during the Cold War, the CIA supported various dictators, including the infamous Augusto Pinochet, who have been friendly to perceived U.S. geopolitical interests (namely anti-Communism), sometimes over democratically-elected governments.

Often cited as one of the American intelligence community's biggest blunders is the CIA involvement in equipping and training Mujahedeen fighters in Afghanistan in response to the Soviet invasion of the country. Many of the Mujahedeen trained by the CIA later joined Usama bin Laden's Al Qaeda terrorist organization.
...
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA#Controversies
 
  • #9
MaxS
33
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The history of South America for the last 100 years (and even longer) has largely been the history of U.S. intereference (many would call it terrorism).

In fact, the U.S. run academy for installing illigitimate Latin American dictators is still around (The School of the Americas).
 
  • #10
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,802
5
You know, Smoking Man, you really give the impression that you think one terrorist is justified because of another. Every civilization that has ever existed on this planet has a long history of propogating warfare, and of course this includes western civilization and even the United States. It's hard to see how that excuses the actions of modern-day middle-eastern terrorist organizations, especially given that there have only been three attacks that I can ever think of that were directly against the United States (Britain in the War of 1812, Japan at Pearl Harbor, and Al Qaeda on 9/11) and only one of them was carried out by one of these terrorist organizations.
 
  • #11
MaxS
33
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loseyourname said:
You know, Smoking Man, you really give the impression that you think one terrorist is justified because of another.

I don't think he was trying to condone terrorism at all, rather he was trying to point out that Russ's claims were rather one sided thats all.

Also there are more than just three attacks, much more, but if you're talking about attacks specifically on U.S. soil (excluding embassy bombings, plane bombings and the like) I would bring your attention to the first WTC attack, as well as the Oklahoma City bombing (the work of an American, but still a terrorist), then theres the Unabomber, not to mention the bombings of black churches by American terrorist organizations such as the KKK (and the many other evil things they and organizations of their ilk did). More recently, what about the envelopes with anthrax sent to senators and news organizations? That was also domestic work. What about the DC snipers?

There are many many other examples but these are just the ones that sprang immediately to mind.
 
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  • #12
Burnsys
64
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loseyourname said:
You know, Smoking Man, you really give the impression that you think one terrorist is justified because of another. Every civilization that has ever existed on this planet has a long history of propogating warfare, and of course this includes western civilization and even the United States. It's hard to see how that excuses the actions of modern-day middle-eastern terrorist organizations, especially given that there have only been three attacks that I can ever think of that were directly against the United States (Britain in the War of 1812, Japan at Pearl Harbor, and Al Qaeda on 9/11) and only one of them was carried out by one of these terrorist organizations.

It doesn't excuses the actions of modern-day middle-eastern terrorist organizations, we are saying it's the motive why they exist today...

What would happened if America didn't trained osama bin laden and the mujadin?? or if american didn't helped saddam husein???
And now i ask you.. what do you think will happen in 10 years in saudi arabia or uzbekistan??
 
  • #13
quetzalcoatl9 said:
isn't this the pot calling the kettle black vis a vi your discussions on communism vs. capitalism?
Capitalism is the basis of US foreign policy, and it is about profit, not morals.

The Smoking Man said:
...We are after all discussing the people who supplied the technology and the know how to Saddam to produce the gasses he used on the Kurds and the Iranians notto mention the satellite intel on the best times, weather conditions and troop movements... Yes ... the fruits of illegal research don't seem to fall far from the tree and what is this illegal substance but an act of terrorism?

Was Saddam field testing your bio-tech for you?
The topic of terrorism, and of course the definition of terrorism--one of which is state terrorism, has been discussed in depth but immediately dismissed from thought by those who are in denial.

The problem with those who espouse 'morals' is the inevitable hypocrisy, including domestic trends that we are experiencing at this time. These people who make election decisions based on so-called 'values' do not live any more a virtuous life than their secular counterparts. In fact, I have found them to be very confused in their thinking that because they go to church it makes them good people, while secular/liberal people are far more charitable and concerned about social issues including education, the environment, etc.

The mentality seems to hold true at the global level too. It has been said many times that we need better education in the US, specifically of a global nature, beginning in grade school with current event assignments. Americans are oblivious to their own history outside their borders, which is apparent as they seem to struggle with simple things like the causes of terrorism.
 
  • #14
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,802
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MaxS said:
I don't think he was trying to condone terrorism at all, rather he was trying to point out that Russ's claims were rather one sided thats all.

Also there are more than just three attacks, much more, but if you're talking about attacks specifically on U.S. soil (excluding embassy bombings, plane bombings and the like) I would bring your attention to the first WTC attack, as well as the Oklahoma City bombing (the work of an American, but still a terrorist), then theres the Unabomber, not to mention the bombings of black churches by American terrorist organizations such as the KKK (and the many other evil things they and organizations of their ilk did). More recently, what about the envelopes with anthrax sent to senators and news organizations? That was also domestic work. What about the DC snipers?

There are many many other examples but these are just the ones that sprang immediately to mind.

I was thinking of attacks by outsiders, as the impression I got was that Smoking Man was justifying (not necessarily condoning) actions by these outside groups as responses to US aggression. Americans killing Americans wasn't on my mind. I almost forgot about that first WTC attack, though, it was so small comparatively.

My point is simply that you walk a fine line here. When Russ cries out about, say, Chechens killing Russian schoolchildren, do you really think the appropriate response is "but the Russians kill Chechens every day?" How is killing innocent civilians that are in no way linked to any military target ever justified? Regardless of who does it, it's wrong. When you respond by screaming that the other side does the same thing, I respond by asking "So what?" Does that make it right?

Honestly, can't we just condemn evil actions? Would not the first step to clearing our world of these things be an unqualified non-acceptance of them?
 
  • #15
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
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Burnsys said:
It doesn't excuses the actions of modern-day middle-eastern terrorist organizations, we are saying it's the motive why they exist today...

The reason they exist is the human desire for vengeance. 'You got us, now we'll get you.' That is exactly the attitude I'm trying to abet. It seems to be the attitude that threads like this condone.
 
  • #16
loseyourname said:
I was thinking of attacks by outsiders, as the impression I got was that Smoking Man was justifying (not necessarily condoning) actions by these outside groups as responses to US aggression. Americans killing Americans wasn't on my mind. I almost forgot about that first WTC attack, though, it was so small comparatively.

My point is simply that you walk a fine line here. When Russ cries out about, say, Chechens killing Russian schoolchildren, do you really think the appropriate response is "but the Russians kill Chechens every day?" How is killing innocent civilians that are in no way linked to any military target ever justified? Regardless of who does it, it's wrong. When you respond by screaming that the other side does the same thing, I respond by asking "So what?" Does that make it right?

Honestly, can't we just condemn evil actions? Would not the first step to clearing our world of these things be an unqualified non-acceptance of them?
Yes everyone including Muslims should condemn evil actions, in particular targeting innocent civilians, which is most heinous. However, nothing is one sided and everyone needs to accept responsibility for contribution to the problems in the world today. Until all parties are willing to do so, how can the problem be resolved?
 
  • #17
MaxS
33
0
loseyourname said:
The reason they exist is the human desire for vengeance. 'You got us, now we'll get you.' That is exactly the attitude I'm trying to abet. It seems to be the attitude that threads like this condone.

This thread doesn't condone that attitude at all and either you are delibirately missing that point and trolling or, well, you are missing the point.

This thread is not about saying, "Well, the other side does it too, that makes it ok!"

It is about saying we have no right to say muslims are terrorists etc etc when we do the same thing. That doesn't mean it is OK one way or the other, obviously it is not.
 
  • #18
loseyourname said:
You know, Smoking Man, you really give the impression that you think one terrorist is justified because of another. Every civilization that has ever existed on this planet has a long history of propogating warfare, and of course this includes western civilization and even the United States. It's hard to see how that excuses the actions of modern-day middle-eastern terrorist organizations, especially given that there have only been three attacks that I can ever think of that were directly against the United States (Britain in the War of 1812, Japan at Pearl Harbor, and Al Qaeda on 9/11) and only one of them was carried out by one of these terrorist organizations.
First off I would like to reiterate what I have said on previous threads. I abhore all terrorist acts no matter who the perpetrators are. However I believe your criticism in this case is in error. The title of the thread is American terrorism so by bringing in M.E, terrorism you are going off topic and in fact (unintentionally I am sure) doing the very thing you are accusing TSM of doing which is using the argument of 'we may be bad but what about them'.
 
  • #19
The Smoking Man
47
0
loseyourname said:
You know, Smoking Man, you really give the impression that you think one terrorist is justified because of another. Every civilization that has ever existed on this planet has a long history of propogating warfare, and of course this includes western civilization and even the United States. It's hard to see how that excuses the actions of modern-day middle-eastern terrorist organizations, especially given that there have only been three attacks that I can ever think of that were directly against the United States (Britain in the War of 1812, Japan at Pearl Harbor, and Al Qaeda on 9/11) and only one of them was carried out by one of these terrorist organizations.
Sorry for that impression then.

I believe that the tiime for ALL to be held accountable is upon us and that terrorism should be stopped at all levels.

Now that can't take place when you are prepared to 'forgive' acts of terrorism by states you are sympathetic to.

Besides pointing out what is wrong with 'Moslem' states, we must therefore also acknowledge what goes on in western countries and admit it is equally heinous.

Call it the 'arms race' of terrorism if you will and you are not going to get rid of it until something is done by all parties involved.
 
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  • #20
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,802
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MaxS said:
It is about saying we have no right to say muslims are terrorists etc etc when we do the same thing. That doesn't mean it is OK one way or the other, obviously it is not.

Who are 'we?' I've never committed a terrorist act, and presumably neither has anyone else that has posted a thread in this forum. So why do we not have the right to call Islamic terrorists 'terrorists?" Russ simply called an immoral act 'immoral.' If what he says is correct, and everyone seems to agree that it is, why the objection?

Art said:
The title of the thread is American terrorism so by bringing in M.E, terrorism you are going off topic and in fact (unintentionally I am sure) doing the very thing you are accusing TSM of doing which is using the argument of 'we may be bad but what about them'.

How so? I've made no evaluation of either group. If you want me to, however, personally I think neither is particularly well justified. I never have and I'm not going to sit here from my pedestal and lecture you guys about calling US actions 'immoral.' I'm especially not going to do so by pointing out that other nations and civilizations have performed similar actions. If what the US does is immoral, then you have every right to call the actions by the name they deserve. Same goes with any other group performing immoral actions.

The Smoking Man said:
Sorry for that impression then.

I believe that the tiime for ALL to be held accountable is upon us and that terrorism should be stopped at all levels.

Now that can't take place when you are prepared to 'forgive' acts of terrorism by states you are sympathetic to.

Besides pointing out what is wrong with 'Moslem' states, we must therefore also acknowledge what goes on in western countries and admit it is equally heinous.

Call it the 'arms race' of terrorism if you will and you are not going to get rid of it until something is done by all parties involved.

Good. Thank you for not jumping on me. You seem to have gotten the message of what I was posting. I agree with you, although I don't think that simply acknowledging that the US has done and continues to do bad things is going to solve anything by itself. It is a little more complicated than that; then again, I'm sure you agree.
 
  • #21
The Smoking Man
47
0
loseyourname said:
Good. Thank you for not jumping on me. You seem to have gotten the message of what I was posting. I agree with you, although I don't think that simply acknowledging that the US has done and continues to do bad things is going to solve anything by itself. It is a little more complicated than that; then again, I'm sure you agree.
Damn straight. Now we have to prosecute. Justice must be seen to be done.

Without this, the USA will never be able to take the moral high ground again.
 
  • #22
russ_watters
Mentor
21,866
8,840
Honestly, TSM, I don't see the point of this thread. If you're trying to catch me holding a double-standard, you won't find one. I say I am a fair and reasonable person and its the truth. For example, the Tuskegee syphillis study (which had nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen) was a national travesty. A disgrace. I absolutely, unequivocably condemn it. In fact, it astonishes me that you would expect me not to condemn it or to try to wiggle around it and not give a straight answer - perhaps that comes from looking in the mirror? Can you repeat the words I just said but fill in one of the acts we've been discussing in other threads (such as the bomber who killed kids around a Humvee)? Can you give an unequivocal condemnation of an act comitted by someone in the name of something you hold dear?

With that in mind, I think that if you weigh the good against the bad, the US comes out looking pretty good overall - most especially because of it's relatively unique ability to evolve: A Tuskeegee type incident is unlikely to happen in the US because the US is better than it was 50 years ago.

And one more thing: the title of the thread is a vague, backhand insult that is not substantiated. In this thread and others, you (and others) have broadened the definition of "terrorism" to allow you to apply it to the US while simultaneously narrowed it to allow you to avoid applying it to certain organizations/incidents in the Middle East. If you're looking for consistency from me, you'll never find it unless you first get some for yourself. Its like shooting video from a rocking ship - to you it looks like the shore is moving up and down, when the reality is that it's you who is moving up and down.
 
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  • #23
The British at least, seem to hold their hands up when caught behaving badly;

'Vital' investigation welcomed

Eleven soldiers have been charged over the deaths
Three British soldiers have been charged with war crimes and four face criminal charges over the death of an Iraqi, while a further four face charges over the death of another person.
The charges have prompted reaction from various sectors, including former soldiers and Muslim leaders.


MUSLIM COUNCIL OF BRITAIN, INAYAT BUNGLAWALA
Indirectly, this may help blunt the ability of extremists to exploit the Iraq war.

These are very serious allegations and it is vital that they are investigated and, if our soldiers have committed these offences, they ought to be disciplined and punished.

It sends a signal to other British soldiers that this type of behaviour will not be tolerated but also to the Iraqi people and the wider Muslim world that we are not in Iraq to excuse our own crimes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4699773.stm
 
  • #24
MaxS
33
0
London's Mayor: "Under foreign occupation and denied a right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs ... I suspect that if it had happened here in England we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves."
 
  • #25
The Smoking Man
47
0
russ_watters said:
Honestly, TSM, I don't see the point of this thread. If you're trying to catch me holding a double-standard, you won't find one. I say I am a fair and reasonable person and its the truth. For example, the Tuskegee syphillis study (which had nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen) was a national travesty. A disgrace. I absolutely, unequivocably condemn it. In fact, it astonishes me that you would expect me not to condemn it or to try to wiggle around it and not give a straight answer - perhaps that comes from looking in the mirror? Can you repeat the words I just said but fill in one of the acts we've been discussing in other threads (such as the bomber who killed kids around a Humvee)? Can you give an unequivocal condemnation of an act comitted by someone in the name of something you hold dear?
Russ, I have come out a couple of times and stated that I abhore what happened around the Humvee and in London.

I have also sat here and watched as quite a few have dismissed and even RIDICULED American agression against civillian targets.

It seems to me a couple of people here came out and actually mentioned how 'their sweaters were in sympathy with the rocket attack launched against a convoy of trucks carrying sheep'.

Tell me who has the double standard Russ?

I've had others dismiss a bunker buster killing a whole family and ripping the arms off a young boy 30 miles outside of Bahgdad because 'there might have been a "convoy" in the area'.... Well, heck ... do you think the chldren might have died becasue there was a Humvee in the area?

Here's an obvious question ... If the target was children, why didn't they just walk into a school and take out a few hundred kids in an American built school?

Here's what I see as excuses ...

Saddam built targets in Urban areas to use the population as human shields ... America has to use smart bombs against the installations and forgives the civillian deaths as 'collateral damage'.

US soldiers are actually issued with candy to attract children to their positions while on patrol in Military vehicles ... When a child dies then automatically, the 'terrorist' was targetting the children and not the Humvee regardless of the fact that if they wanted to kill Children, a school would have been a more efficient target.

russ_watters said:
With that in mind, I think that if you weigh the good against the bad, the US comes out looking pretty good overall - most especially because of it's relatively unique ability to evolve: A Tuskeegee type incident is unlikely to happen in the US because the US is better than it was 50 years ago.
Yes, we can all see the 'mental notebook' ... "Don't do this to Americans any more".

We also see the invention of new and marvellous techniques to get around the problems of a more 'modern world' like "extraordinary rendition" for instance. Or how about the creation of prison camps outside the continental USA to avoid those pesky American laws of habeas corpus and all other things related to and guaranteed under the laws of the US Constitution?

russ_watters said:
And one more thing: the title of the thread is a vague, backhand insult that is not substantiated. In this thread and others, you (and others) have broadened the definition of "terrorism" to allow you to apply it to the US while simultaneously narrowed it to allow you to avoid applying it to certain organizations/incidents in the Middle East. If you're looking for consistency from me, you'll never find it unless you first get some for yourself. Its like shooting video from a rocking ship - to you it looks like the shore is moving up and down, when the reality is that it's you who is moving up and down.
I can see you have taken your gravol.

What I admit is that we are both staring at each other from the decks of boats.

It is you who are claiming that because your boat is an incredibly large aircraft carrier with gyros to keep the deck straight that it's 'just like dry land'.

I deliberately created this thread to keep one of your threads 'clean'.

I wrote the original post on one of your threads and then deleted it posting it here to avoid the accusation of 'hijacking your thread'.

I deliberately took what most Republican/Neocons refer to as the 'subversive liberal sneak attack' buried in 'their threads' and made a place where it is right out in the open and states in unequivocal terms what it is and why it is there.

Now again, why am I getting attacked for the creation of a thread and not the content?

Why can we have:

The Greatest American is ...
Just how many Moslems support terrorism ...
Awful news in Iraq ...
The surprising origins of the current "Jihad" ...

With no questions of this nature?

I have never seen a question of a thread's right to exist before. Even in High School Debating clubs no issues or premise are considered taboo. You are, after all, here to keep us on the straight and narrow with your observations and arguments.
 
  • #26
russ_watters said:
Honestly, TSM, I don't see the point of this thread. If you're trying to catch me holding a double-standard, you won't find one. I say I am a fair and reasonable person and its the truth. For example, the Tuskegee syphillis study (which had nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen) was a national travesty. A disgrace. I absolutely, unequivocably condemn it. In fact, it astonishes me that you would expect me not to condemn it or to try to wiggle around it and not give a straight answer - perhaps that comes from looking in the mirror? Can you repeat the words I just said but fill in one of the acts we've been discussing in other threads (such as the bomber who killed kids around a Humvee)? Can you give an unequivocal condemnation of an act comitted by someone in the name of something you hold dear?
37% of civilians killed in Iraq have been killed by US led forces, 36% by criminals and just 9.5% (including police and recruits) by insurgents. So as a fair and reasonable person who doesn't hold with double-standards let's hear your unequivocal condemnation of this appalling loss of 9,270 civilian lives killed by US military forces as according to the numbers you are 4 times worse than the insurgents you despise so much. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4696875.stm
 
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  • #27
The Smoking Man
47
0
russ_watters said:
With that in mind, I think that if you weigh the good against the bad, the US comes out looking pretty good overall - most especially because of it's relatively unique ability to evolve: A Tuskeegee type incident is unlikely to happen in the US because the US is better than it was 50 years ago.
Another thing Russ,

'50 years ago' is kind of a magic number in the USA.

As the 'freedom of information act' comes into place and the seals are broken on numerous documents we find that many old debates are being rehashed and the laws of the USA are being changed with respect to what happened then.

We are also seeing effects on a globlal scale.

Have you, for instance seen the contents of Bill s1902 and why it has been enacted?

http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/jap1902.html

Endorsement Letter of S1902 By Sheldon H. Harris said:
... My support for the full disclosure of American held records relating to the Japanese Imperial Army's wartime crimes against humanity is both personal and professional. I am aware of the terrible suffering members of the Imperial Japanese Army imposed upon innocent Asians, prisoners of war of various nationalists and civilian internees of Allied nations. These inhumane acts were condoned, if not ordered, by the highest authorities in both the civilian and military branches of the Japanese government. As a consequence, millions of persons were killed, maimed, tortured, or experienced acts of violence that included human experiments relating to biological and chemical warfare research. Many of these actions meet the definition of "war crimes" under both the Potsdam Declaration and the various Nuremberg War Crimes trials held in the post-war period.

...

In my capacity as an academic Historian, I can testify to the difficulty researchers have in unearthing documents and personal testimony concerning these war crimes. I, and other researchers, have been denied access to military archives in Japan. These archives cover activities by the Imperial Japanese Army that occurred more than 50 years ago. The documents in question cannot conceivably contain information that would be considered of importance to "National Security" today. The various governments in Japan for the past half century have kept these archives firmly closed. The fear is that the information contained in the archives will embarrass previous governments.

Here in the United States, despite the Freedom of Information Act, some archives remain closed to investigators. At best, the archivists in charge, or the Freedom of Information Officer at the archive in question, select what documents they will allow to become public. This is an unconscionable act of arrogance and a betrayal of the trust they have been given by the Congress and the President of the United States. Moreover, "sensitive" documents--as defined by archivists and FOIA officers--are at the moment being destroyed. Thus, historians and concerned citizens are being denied factual evidence that can shed some light on the terrible atrocities committed by Japanese militarists in the past.

Three examples of this wanton destruction should be sufficiently illustrative of the dangers that exist, and should reinforce the obvious necessity for prompt passage of legislation you propose to introduce into the Congress:

1. In 1991, the Librarian at Dugway Proving Grounds, Dugway, Utah, denied me access to the archives at the facility. It was only through the intervention of then U.S. Representative Wayne Owens, Dem., Utah, that I was given permission to visit the facility. I was not shown all the holdings relating to Japanese medical experiments, but the little I was permitted to examine revealed a great deal of information about medical war crimes. Sometimes after my visit, a person with intimate knowledge of Dugway's operations, informed me that "sensitive" documents were destroyed there as a direct result of my research in their library.

2. I conducted much of my American research at Fort Detrick in Frederick, Md. The Public Information Officer there was extremely helpful to me. Two weeks ago I telephoned Detrick, was informed that the PIO had retired last May. I spoke with the new PIO, who told me that Detrick no longer would discuss past research activities, but would disclose information only on current projects. Later that day I telephoned the retired PIO at his home. He informed me that upon retiring he was told to "get rid of that stuff", meaning incriminating documents relating to Japanese medical war crimes. Detrick no longer is a viable research center for historians.

3. Within the past 2 weeks, I was informed that the Pentagon, for "space reasons", decided to rid itself of all biological warfare documents in its holdings prior to 1949. The date is important, because all war crimes trials against accused Japanese war criminals were terminated by 1949. Thus, current Pentagon materials could not implicate alleged Japanese war criminals. Fortunately, a private research facility in Washington volunteered to retrieve the documents in question. This research facility now holds the documents, is currently cataloguing them (estimated completion time, at least twelve months), and is guarding the documents under "tight security."

Your proposed legislation must be acted upon promptly. Many of the victims of Japanese war crimes are elderly. Some of the victims pass away daily. Their suffering should receive recognition and some compensation. Moreover, History is being cheated. As documents disappear, the story of war crimes committed in the War In The Pacific becomes increasingly difficult to describe. The end result will be a distorted picture of reality. As an Historian, I cannot accept this inevitability without vigorous protest.
Why is it all so important?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050720/wl_asia_afp/japanchinawarcourtreax_050720080613 [Broken]
"Unit 731 perpetrated the most shocking, heinous, cruel crime the civilized world has ever known -- it used human beings for vivisection to develop biological weapons," it said.

"When Chinese nationals request war reparations from the Japanese government, they ask for justice.

"History is a heavy page Japan will not be able to turn over if the country refuses to face it squarely," the China Daily said.

The Japanese government denied the existence of Unit 731 until 1998, when the Supreme Court indirectly acknowledged it by ruling that there was an academic consensus that it existed.

At the same time, the government says it knows nothing about specific wrongdoing by the unit, which was disguised as a water purification bureau, and has rejected related damages claims.


Lawyers for the Chinese plaintiffs have said they will appeal to the Supreme Court by the end of the week.
Problem: http://www.avbia.org/files/Unit%20731-1.htm [Broken]
US Pardoned Unit 731 Members in Exchange of Experiment Data said:
According to published data, U.S. intelligence knew about the work of Unit 731 long before the end of the war. However, at the end of the war, Ishii Shiro and all his subordinates were pensioned off by the U.S. Government in return for the data related to human experiments. Because of this "plea bargain", the criminal acts of the notorious Unit 731 have disappeared from history with the end of the war. Up to this day, the Japanese government still will not confess these criminal offenses.

In 1949, some members of Unit 731 were captured by the Russian army in Manchuria. When the Russians tried them in a military tribunal, some of the information on Unit 731 leaked out. One of the members of Unit 731 in the bacteria production department, under interrogation by Russian personnel, confessed that Unit 731 practiced experiments with live human subjects. Russia immediately sent a request through the International Bureau of Investigation to prosecute Ishii Shiro and all related personnel, but the request was rejected by the U.S. Government. Unit 731 has not received its deserved prosecution and trial, just as the Japanese emperor has never been tried as a war criminal. This was all influenced by the decision of the U.S. Government.

...

In early September, Sanders discovered that Unit 731 had performed experiments on live humans. When he reported this back to General McArthur, he was told to keep silent on this issue.

US Suppressed Prosecution of Unit 731 to Keep its Bacteriological Warfare Data

Sanders went back to the US for business after staying in Japan for only ten weeks. He handed over the second stage of the investigation to his colleague Lieutenant Colonel Arvo Thompson. Sanders never returned to Japan to finish his investigation. Forty years later he wrote in his memoirs “I told Lieutenant Colonel Thompson about the anthrax bomb and the use of live humans in experiments. I specifically asked him to search for anthrax experiment data and the Uji bomb.”

When Lieutenant Colonel Thompson arrived in Japan, the Tokyo Military Tribunal was just about to start the trial of the Class A war criminals. Although Ishii had arranged a fake funeral ceremony in his hometown and the Japanese newspaper alleged that he was dead, Ishii knew that he could not hide forever. He finally surrendered to the allied authority. Thompson interrogated him for more than a month (from January 17 to February 25, 1946). To parry the investigation, Ishii was very thrifty on his words and purposely toned down the scale of the bacteriological warfare research, denying his experiments on live humans, but boasted of his knowledge about bacteriological warfare. Thus, Thompson was equally deceived by the Japanese. He only mentioned the technology of making germ bombs and the knowledge of cultivating large quantity of germs in his May 1946 report.

Under the influence of General McArthur, Joseph Keenan, the Chief Prosecutor of Tokyo Military Tribunal, suppressed Russia’s motion to prosecute the Japanese war criminals of germ warfare. Major General Charles Willoughby, Head of the Intelligence Department of the Allied Forces Headquarter under General McArthur, controlled all of Unit 731 personnel’s contacts with the outside world in order to prevent the leak of the bacteriological warfare information to the Russians.

American Lieutenant Colonel now Regrets the Pardon of Unit 731

(Information adopted from NBC Dateline “Factory of Death: Unit 731”, August 15, 1995)

When Murray Sanders recalled the past, he said that it was a mistake for the criminal Japanese to have been pardoned.

I know that is a heck of a lot of information for you to digest however it boils down to this:

America is complicit in the covering up of Japanese war crimes so that they could again access to bio-warfare information that was banned in 1925.

America then used this information in their own development of biowarfare agents even though the ban has never been removed. (If you take a look at where that information is stored as per bill s1902, you will see these are the military posts where biowarfare agents were developed in the USA.)

The 'fruits' of all this research are what was given to one, Saddam Hussein and used by him to great effect against his people and the people of Iran.

Japan now seeks a seat on the security council without the obligation of making things right due to the McArthur 'get out of jail free card'.

Sistered to this is the problem of abandoned ordinance that still plagues China:

http://guywong.home.netcom.com/html/terror.htm [Broken]
http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~e-ogawa/newsweek072098.htm [Broken]

Newsweek said:
China began gathering abandoned chemical weapons and burying them in remote Dunhua County, now Asia's most dangerous dump. Today two massive pits there contain more than half a million munitions -- shells of unknown content and volatility that must be excavated individually with archeological precision. Then the problem is what to do with them. The so-called "open burn, open detonate" approach to disposal, used most recently on Iraqi arsenals after the gulf war, is not an option here. One Foreign Ministry official warned that an accidental explosion in Dunhua would kill everything, even grass, within a 200-kilometer radius.

But it looks like Japan will receive a Security Council Veto before they become answerable to the 2007 deadline for the clean-up when a resolution would be passed against them.

So, as you can see, 50 to 60 years may be easy for you to dismiss along with the illegal activities of the US government in developing bio-warfare but there are many people in this world who see it otherwise.
 
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  • #28
The Smoking Man
47
0
loseyourname said:
Who are 'we?' I've never committed a terrorist act, and presumably neither has anyone else that has posted a thread in this forum. So why do we not have the right to call Islamic terrorists 'terrorists?" Russ simply called an immoral act 'immoral.' If what he says is correct, and everyone seems to agree that it is, why the objection?
Just as a little jibe ... would you have preferred it if I had called the thread "Just How Many Americans Support Terrorism" and given all the states and their voting records that voted for bush? :biggrin:
 
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  • #29
MaxS
33
0
Smoking man thank you for that run down i never knew about that.

I am disgusted and dismayed to hear this history but I can't say I'm surprised any longer.

Something I've always found interesting: There are declassified documents titled Project Northwoods which were signed off on by the Joint Chiefs ("i before except after c" my ass by the way) but never carried out.

Basically they detailed a plan in which the U.S. government would hijack and crash civilian airliners into buildings and blame the attacks on Cuba, in order to justify an invasion.

This isn't conspiracy theory unfortunately, the information is in the public domain since being declassified, do a google search if you don't take my word for it =(.
 
  • #30
russ_watters
Mentor
21,866
8,840
The Smoking Man said:
Now again, why am I getting attacked for the creation of a thread and not the content?
All I said is I don't see the point, TSM. In fact, I noticed the post you were referring to and I appreciate your not hijacking the thread.

It looks to me like you're just flooding - posting a whole lot of information without being willing to discuss any of the overall points. Your attempt at making a direct trail from WWII to Saddam to the Gulf War doesn't work: Saddam never used biological weapons, he used chemical weapons - weapons designed for use in WWI.

Regarding the pardoning of those soldiers - again, thats something that was unquestionably wrong. But I think part of what's going on here is you're reacting to the current climate in China, which is very anti-Japan because it is looking back at WWII. You're showing the same history-based hate that motivates terrorism! If that is allowed to continue, Japan and China may soon find themselves at war with each other.

Such attitudes are obsolete. Starting with the end of WWI and Wilson's 14 points (yes, they failed the first time), such nationalistic attitudes were cast aside by the western world and the result is the first real peace in the west in the history of the world. France and Germany are not fighting each other. Germany and Poland are not still arguing over WWII either. These countries recognize that the Germany of today is not the same Germany that existed in 1939. They recognize that countries evolve. You, clearly, do not.
 
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  • #31
loseyourname
Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
1,802
5
The Smoking Man said:
Just as a little jibe ... would you have preferred it if I had called the thread "Just How Many Americans Support Terrorism" and given all the states and their voting records that voted for bush? :biggrin:

Does it make any difference who one voted for? Is there any president over the last one hundred years under whose watch the US committed no acts that you could somehow find a way to label as "terrorist?"
 
  • #32
stoned
82
0
American terrorism ?? how can be this peace loving, innocent, God fearing nation ever be invoved in anything like that ! :frown:
 
  • #33
vanesch
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
5,109
18
russ_watters said:
Such attitudes are obsolete. Starting with the end of WWI and Wilson's 14 points (yes, they failed the first time), such nationalistic attitudes were cast aside by the western world and the result is the first real peace in the west in the history of the world. France and Germany are not fighting each other. Germany and Poland are not still arguing over WWII either. These countries recognize that the Germany of today is not the same Germany that existed in 1939. They recognize that countries evolve. You, clearly, do not.

I agree with you here Russ (this is such a rare event that when it happens, I like to point it out :biggrin:), in that looking back for more than 2 generations is a vendetta attitude which only brings in more trouble. Moreover, China might push a bit its "victim" image here because of others (the US, the EU) getting nervous with China's trading practices, and starts to get a bit finger pointed, so time for dressing up as a victim to change the subject. (just a wild guess of mine) And hitting on the head of their historical arch enemy, Japan, is always easy to do.

That said, misbehaviour of long ago often DOES play a crucial role in politics. For instance, it is almost incomprehensible that Turkey doesn't want to recognize the Armenian genocide of the beginning of the 20th century, even if it is one of the conditions that the EU has spelled out for its possible membership. What difference can it possibly make that your great grandfather did some atrocities ?
 
  • #34
The Smoking Man
47
0
russ_watters said:
It looks to me like you're just flooding - posting a whole lot of information without being willing to discuss any of the overall points. Your attempt at making a direct trail from WWII to Saddam to the Gulf War doesn't work: Saddam never used biological weapons, he used chemical weapons - weapons designed for use in WWI.
Then I have clearly failed to make you aware that the Geneva Conventions were altered to prevent the use of ALL agents including Chemical Weapons . Sorry:
Wikipedia said:
The Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, usually called the Geneva Protocol, is a treaty to ban the use of chemical and biological weapons. It was signed at Geneva on June 17, 1925 and was entered into force on February 8, 1928.

It prohibits the use of chemical weapons and biological weapons, but has nothing to say about production, storage or transfer. It was in 1972 augmented with the Biological Weapons Convention and in 1993 with the Chemical Weapons Convention.

russ_watters said:
Regarding the pardoning of those soldiers - again, thats something that was unquestionably wrong. But I think part of what's going on here is you're reacting to the current climate in China, which is very anti-Japan because it is looking back at WWII. You're showing the same history-based hate that motivates terrorism! If that is allowed to continue, Japan and China may soon find themselves at war with each other.
Then sorry, I have again failed to make you aware that the 1993 weapons convention was used in 1997 to enable China to force Japan to clean up the mass of Chemical Weapons left there since Nanking and before. To those who experienced war, this is not just an argument about 'text books' which is indeed a focus at the moment but of a much deeper problem.

When we look upon the wars of nations prior to this, the finding of a bronze sword is considered an archeological wonder and the product is put on display in a museum.

Well, I am sorry to have to tell you but sites like http://guywong.home.netcom.com/html/terror.htm [Broken] are just a few minutes away by train for me.

For you, the war ended in 1945/6 and you have little to worry about.

For you, the pardon and subsequent cover-up have really had little effect other than to place your country at the top when it comes to the manufacture and deployment of illegal weapons.

In China, that cover-up has produced deniability on behalf of the Japanese that has hindered compensations, clean-ups and repatriation of looted materials for over 60 years now.

It is only after 50 years that most of the proof of what has happened has been revealed to the world because of the Freedom of Information Act. The amount of information held by the US Military as 'state secrets' in that time is truly staggering and the implications for what it means to the Chinese people is truly amazing for the scale of the injustice perpetrated upon them and the world.

Are you aware for instance that 'plague animals' used by the Japanese during the war were not destroyed at the end of the war but released into the wild?

We can only speculate on what some of the diseases were. We know they played with Bubonic Plague becasue the rats of the area still display the antibodies. Glanders was another that we find in 'Rotten-Leg Village' (Zhejiang) because we still have victims. The catalogue of diseases so far identified: Bubonic Plague, Anthrax (including inhalation, skin and gastrointestinal types), Smallpox, Typhoid, Paratyphoid A and B, Tularemia, Cholera, Epidemic Hemorrhagic Fever, Syphilis, Botulism, Brucellosis, Dysentery, Tetanus, Glanders, Tuberculosis, Yellow fever, Typhus, Tularemia, Gas Gangrene, Scarlet Sever, Songo, Diphtheria, Brysipelas, Selmonella, Infectious Jaundice, Undulant Fever, Epidemic Cerebrospinal Meningitis and Tick Encephalitis.

Well, here's a thought to ponder ... SARS originates near one of the many Units in China where plague animals were released. Is it a mutated virus that the Japanese were developing?

russ_watters said:
Such attitudes are obsolete. Starting with the end of WWI and Wilson's 14 points (yes, they failed the first time), such nationalistic attitudes were cast aside by the western world and the result is the first real peace in the west in the history of the world. France and Germany are not fighting each other. Germany and Poland are not still arguing over WWII either. These countries recognize that the Germany of today is not the same Germany that existed in 1939. They recognize that countries evolve. You, clearly, do not.
Yes, Europe is at peace with Germany.

Back in Sept 1999, two federal courts in New Jersey ruled in favor of a German company barring claims of a Slave laborer. Nonetheless, Germany and its industry recognized their responsibility and continued to negotiate.

Though the Nazi regime lost the war, German companies profited from Slave labor. German industrial wealth was 17 times larger After the war than in 1939 by using Slave laborers according to economic historian Dietrich Eichholz.

"We were treated worse than Slaves, you try to keep Saves alive. We were like sandpaper: used, thrown away and burnt with the garbage."

In August 2000, the Foundation "Remembrance, Responsibility and the Future" was created by the German Government and German companies in recognition of Germany's moral responsibility towards those subjected to Slave labour during the WWII. The Foundation was endowed with Slave Funds of $5.11 Billion Euros, provided in equal parts by the German government and about 6,000 companies of German Industry.

In late 2000, an ambitious Japanese Diet proposed a similar fund to compensate Slaves, closely patterned on the German example. Unfortunately, it went nowhere.

There is also a Polish-German Reconciliation Fund for Poles who were used as guinea pigs in pseudomedical experiments by the Nazis.

"I pay tribute to all those who were subjected to slave and forced labor under German rule, and in the name of the German people beg forgiveness," said Johannes Rau, German president in 2000, "We will not forget their suffering."

To date, Over 1.63 Million Slave victims have received compensation from Germany.

Even professed Neutral Nations like Sweden and Switzerland have had the courage to take a painful look back at their WWII record; 1.25 Billion Swiss Banks Settlement signed in 1999 by the Swiss banks.

In Germany, it is a crime to utter what is called "the Auschwitz lie" - denial of the death camps.

In schools, Germany has hammered students with anti-Nazi education and the concept of Zivilcourage.

German leaders consistently apologize for their past aggression in the clearest possible terms. Former Chancellor Willy Brandt once even fell to his knees at the site of the 1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising on Dec 7, 1970 in Poland in tribute with the utmost sincerity to those who had died there at the Nazi hands.

Germany has also made generous acts of atonement and has paid 88 Billions Mark in compensation and reparations to Jewish Holocaust victims and will spend another 20 Billions Mark by 2005.

In 1963, president Charles de Gaulle of France and chancellor Konrad Adenauer of West Germany signed a historic treaty which reconciled these historic enemies. Without this, it is doubtful whether the European Union (EU) could have been achieved.

On Jan. 21, 1997, a joint reconciliation treaty was signed that Germany apologized for Hitler's invasion of the former Czechoslovakia, and Czech expressed regrets for the postwar expulsion of 2.5 millions of Sudeten Germans.

Germany has also paid pensions to the Jews in Israel and U.S. who were living in Eastern Europe during WWII since 1995, and German-speaking Canadian Jews since 2003.

German has made January 27th a national Holocaust Remembrance Day for the victims of the Holocaust since 1996. The date was chosen to mark Jan. 27th, 1945, the day Soviet soldiers liberated the Auschwitz concentration camp.

On May 10, 2005 Germany opens a new Holocaust memorial south of the landmark Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, marking the 60th anniversary of the end of war. “Today we open a memorial that recalls Nazi Germany's worst, most terrible crime ...." said parliamentary president Wolfgang Thierse. He added Germany now "faces up to its history".

German students are also required to visit former concentration camps as part of their Holocaust studies.

German Government has bought a former labor camp near Berlin to open a memorial to commemorate Slave laborers in 2006.

German government has made displaying the Swastika and other Nazi symbols illegal in Germany. Now German politicians have called for Nazi symbols to be banned throughout Europe.

German government passed a bill to restrict rallies by neo-Nazis and allow courts to impose sentences of as much as 3 years in prison or a fine on anyone found guilty of approving, glorifying or justifying the Nazi regime in public.

German government has even offered its formal apology for the colonial-era massacre of Herero tribe in Namibia happened 100 years ago.

Oliver Raag is one of many Germans doing volunteer work in Israel to atone for the deeds of their parents and grandparents. She is a German geriatric nurse whose grandfather transported disabled Jews and other Germans to a gas chamber. "The more I learned about that period in German history, the more I wanted to come here to show that there are other Germans who are not like the Nazis,"

UN General Assembly held a special session marking 60th anniversary of liberation of Holocaust Nazi death camps for First Time. Kofi Annan said, "It is essential for all of us to remember, reflect on, and learn from what happened 60 years ago......".

"I express my shame over those who were murdered, and before those of you who have survived the hell of the concentration camps," said German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, "The vast majority of Germans alive today are NOT to blame for the Holocaust, but they DO bear a "Special Responsibility".

German Chancellor paid tribute at the entrance to Auschwitzand and promised that Germany will fulfill its "Moral Obligation" to keep alive the memory of Nazi's crimes.

Germany led a commemoration of 60th anniversary of the liberation of Nazis' Buchenwald Death Camp. "We cannot change History, but this country can learn a lot from the deepest shame of our History," German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder urged the world never to forget the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis, "I bow before you, the victims and their families."

On Mar 16, 2005 German Foreign Minister gave a speech for the "Remembering the Past, Shaping the Future" session and calls the Jerusalem's new Holocaust memorial "A place of 'Deep Shame' for every German, because the name of my country, Germany, is and will forever be inseparably linked to the Shoah, the ultimate crime against Humanity."

Speaking to a special joint sitting of parliament marking the 60 anniversary of the end of the war, Mr Köhler said: "We have the Responsibility to keep alive the memories of all the suffering .... We Germans look back with horror and shame ..... "

German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder implied: Japan Can Learn From Germany saying postwar Berlin had won the respect of its neighbors in how it contended with its Nazi past.

However, attending the 60th anniversary of End of War in stark contrast to an earnest apology by German leader Gerhard Schroeder, at a press conference in Moscow, Koizumi said : Japan has done enough "Self-Examination".

Why Japanese wartime Apologies Fail - A German Perspective.

German expert: Japan needs to launch self-critical debate on History said Eberhard Sandschneider, Director of the Research Institute of the German Council on Foreign Relations.

While Japanese Yushukan Museum celebrates the Japanese suicidal fighting spirit, the Potsdam exhibit blames the Wehrmacht, Germany's army for bringing shame to the country.

Germany has chosen to examine their history in microscopic details and admit German culpability for the war. By contrast, Japan has long censored textbooks to conceal Japanese atrocities in China and Korea.

Germany has now earned back high respect of the world.

Japan must have the courage to do the same and earn back the respect of the world.
 
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  • #35
The Smoking Man
47
0
loseyourname said:
Does it make any difference who one voted for? Is there any president over the last one hundred years under whose watch the US committed no acts that you could somehow find a way to label as "terrorist?"
But that was my point.

I merely cut-and-pasted the title of Russ' thread and changed the word Moslem to American. (And fixed a spelling mistake.)

Russ stated himself that the survey given in the Moslem nations made no mention of the word 'terrorist', just acts that were labelled 'terrorist' AFTER the fact.

You just reaffirmed my observation that it CAN be done with every president over the last 100 years.

Thanks
:biggrin:
 

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