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Smurf
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...The Smoking Man said:Damn straight. Now we have to prosecute. Justice must be seen to be done.
Without this, the USA will never be able to take the moral high ground again.
...
again? Did I miss the first time?
...The Smoking Man said:Damn straight. Now we have to prosecute. Justice must be seen to be done.
Without this, the USA will never be able to take the moral high ground again.
The Smoking Man said:But that was my point.
I merely cut-and-pasted the title of Russ' thread and changed the word Moslem to American. (And fixed a spelling mistake.)
Russ stated himself that the survey given in the Moslem nations made no mention of the word 'terrorist', just acts that were labelled 'terrorist' AFTER the fact.
You just reaffirmed my observation that it CAN be done with every president over the last 100 years.
Thanks
I see so now it is your turn to make 'absurd statements'?Townsend said:For the sake of argument let’s just take your point of view on this. I don’t agree with you but I want to move on to some other topics so let's just pretend that I agree for now.
So we agree that America is a nation of terrorist, we are ruthless killers who want to destroy the rest of the world. We deserve to have the terrorist attack and kill us in any way they see fit. Americans don’t even deserve to live.
So are you suggesting that America should be taken over by other countries? Should we voluntarily just hand our military over to and fall under the command of some other more benevolent nation and its people? What nation do you propose take over America? Which form of government should we adopt? What would the world do with the world’s largest stockpile of nuclear weapons? What kind of economy should be placed in with the new government? Should there just be extermination camps set up to execute all of the Americans?
I think that if we are like the terrorist that bombed the WTC or London then America needs a regime change. Any nation that supports terrorism needs to be brought down and the terrorist need to be killed.
So, now that we agree that America is FUBARed, what should be done?
The Smoking Man said:But that was my point.
That we can all use a poll or an election to our advantage.loseyourname said:Your point in making the jab at states won by Bush was that no matter who they voted for, they'd be voting for a terrorist? Then why bring up states that voted for Bush?
The Smoking Man said:I see so now it is your turn to make 'absurd statements'?
You are using American reasoning which imperrils all the people who live in certain greographic area for the actions of the few.
I am an American and last time I check, this country is still based on popular sovereignty. My countrymen are happy without government so your point is worthless.I propose that it is the American people themselves that must take control of their government and prosecute them when they are shown to be deliberately deceptive.
I see the US population as being victims as much as the people of Iraq.
But then, this gets back to the problem we have discussed befor as to who is responsible to whom ... Are the govering members of your country answerable to you or are you answerable to them?
Something is REALLY out of kilter over there when you can dog Clinton to death for lies over a BJ and you can just ignore all that has happened in the war in Iraq.
So, where is Ken Star?
The Smoking Man said:What did it then? Why would I never vote for a loser like Kerry? You seem to know what did it so please do tell.Let's face it ... your election was not decided over foreign policy anyway.
It was decided by fundamentalist Christians who were called to the vote from the pulpit over some strange and wonderful domestic issues.
Is that a fact? By fundamentalist Christians? :rofl:You do not understand the political landscape of the United States all do you?
You're not doing a good job. After a lame attempt, you have quickly devolved into devil's advocate.Townsend said:The majority of Americans is not a few. It was a majority who voted for Bush you know. I am only trying to agree with you for arguments sake. Perhaps you need to make yourself clear on what you mean to call America a terrorist nation.
You're people are happy with 'truth, justice and the American way and still believe it to be just like the opening scenes of 'Superman' in the 50's and 60's.Townsend said:I am an American and last time I check, this country is still based on popular sovereignty. My countrymen are happy without government so your point is worthless.
Funny, many of the 'victims' ie. the families of the people who died in 9/11 have come out and condemned the government for actions taken and not taken with respect to their plight.Townsend said:The population is not the victim, it is the government...the people who disagree with the current actions of the government are actually in the minority.
Have Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld tried in the world court. If you beleve them innocent, they will be exonerated and the rest of the world will have to STFU.Townsend said:Well where are your solutions then man? Are you just one of those people who like to point out a problem but then offer no solutions?
Townsend said:What is that suppose to mean?
I don't know, you tell me...seems to me you are calling AMERICA and its people terrorist. Perhaps you need to change your tread title and your position.The Smoking Man said:You're not doing a good job. After a lame attempt, you have quickly devolved into devil's advocate.
Did I call America a terrorist nation or your administration ... There is a difference.
Are you trying to sound condescending? Pretending that America is that stupid? Come on...You're people are happy with 'truth, justice and the American way and still believe it to be just like the opening scenes of 'Superman' in the 50's and 60's.
Why not? If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel.There is also a certain amount of xeonophobia encouraged by the USA to discourage criticisms etc.
Why, for example is the USA of a position that the World Court should have jurisdiction over all the world but not America?
If the world started taking more of the responsibility on without the aid of the US then we would not have to be the police that we are.Who polices the self appointed policeman?
Why is that funny to you? And what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?Funny, many of the 'victims' ie. the families of the people who died in 9/11 have come out and condemned the government for actions taken and not taken with respect to their plight.
As far as Bush being a victim ... he had singularly the worst showing of any president in US history up to the day of 9/11 when he became an American 'hero' overnight.
What about the constitution? We cannot just hand over the President of the United States of America. But it is funny that you think we should and that would somehow fix something. What about the fact that he would only become a martyr for his cause? It is not a solution there TSM, but nice try.Have Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld tried in the world court. If you beleve them innocent, they will be exonerated and the rest of the world will have to STFU.
I don't care about the world court...never have never will...why should I?Do you believe in the impartiality of the world court?
Why did you pull out when you had your first decision against you regarding your activities in Nicaragua?
That has not be established as a fact.Clinto lied about a BJ. Bush lied about all the justifications for war resulting in the deaths of 10's of thousands.
Why isn't Starr persuing Bush on these far more serious charges?
Or perhaps you are too close to the trees to see the wood.Townsend said:Is that a fact? By fundamentalist Christians? :rofl:You do not understand the political landscape of the United States all do you?
Art said:Or perhaps you are too close to the trees to see the wood.
Or perhapse he's not talking directly about you. Just a thoughtTownsend said:I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?
I'm not assuming anything at all about your personal beliefs. I am merely pointing out that often people on the outside looking in may have a better overall perspective than someone who lives closely day to day with all the individual plots sub-plots and personalities that go into making up american foreign policy.Townsend said:I am agnostic...have been since I was about 11 years old. I know why I feel the way I do and it has nothing to do with a religious beliefs. Perhaps you are assuming too much about me Art. Just pretend for the sake of argument that you are, cool?
Regards
Smurf said:Or perhapse he's not talking directly about you. Just a thought
Art said:I'm not assuming anything at all about your personal beliefs. I am merely pointing out that often people on the outside looking in may have a better overall perspective than someone who lives closely day to day with all the individual plots sub-plots and personalities that go into making up american foreign policy.
If an American creates a thread called Iraq Terrorists, do you assume he means every living breathing human being in Iraq including those liberated by the USA?Townsend said:I don't know, you tell me...seems to me you are calling AMERICA and its people terrorist. Perhaps you need to change your tread title and your position.
LOL ... No Comment.Townsend said:Are you trying to sound condescending? Pretending that America is that stupid? Come on...
Great, so if I have the cash to buy a Glock, I have the right to knock off a liquor store because I have a gun? Puleeeeze.Townsend said:Why not? If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel.
Ummm ... Don't you get it? That is what the world HAS been saying.Townsend said:If the world started taking more of the responsibility on without the aid of the US then we would not have to be the police that we are.
Because you stated that the Government of the USA was the victims when in reality, they were condemned by the relatives of the REAL victims and that the government position/popularity was actually HELPED by 9/11.Townsend said:Why is that funny to you? And what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?
Well, apart from it actually BEING a fact, why is it that just a few lines up you have the right to state "If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel." And on other threads you make statements 'Do I have to get my own URL and quote myself'?Townsend said:You're giving me your biased subjective opinion as a fact now?
Then you should be happy at the thought that you would be vindicated, right?Townsend said:What about the constitution? We cannot just hand over the President of the United States of America. But it is funny that you think we should and that would somehow fix something. What about the fact that he would only become a martyr for his cause? It is not a solution there TSM, but nice try.
Townsend said:I don't care about the world court...never have never will...why should I?
I don't anything about that...
Wikipedia said:in Nicaragua v. United States the United States of America had previously accepted the Court's compulsory jurisdiction upon its creation in 1946 but withdrew its acceptance following the Court's judgment in 1984 that called on the United States to "cease and to refrain" from the "unlawful use of force" against the government of Nicaragua. In a split decision, the majority of the Court ruled the United States was "in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to use force against another state" and ordered the US pay reparations (see note 2), although it never did.
Townsend said:That has not be established as a fact.
Oh, that's rich.Townsend said:Because perhaps star is only concerned about selling magazines and not a political agenda?
The Smoking Man said:If an American creates a thread called Iraq Terrorists, do you assume he means every living breathing human being in Iraq including those liberated by the USA?
Great, so if I have the cash to buy a Glock, I have the right to knock off a liquor store because I have a gun? Puleeeeze.
Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?Ummm ... Don't you get it? That is what the world HAS been saying.
The people are the concern of the government...Because you stated that the Government of the USA was the victims when in reality, they were condemned by the relatives of the REAL victims and that the government position/popularity was actually HELPED by 9/11.
I was stating my opinion not a fact. For instance, I think China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion that I am stating as an opinion, now compare that to. China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion but it is being stated as a fact.Well, apart from it actually BEING a fact, why is it that just a few lines up you have the right to state "If our military and tax dollars the ones doing the work then we have earned the right. That is how I feel." And on other threads you make statements 'Do I have to get my own URL and quote myself'?
The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?Since when is guilt the reason for having a trial? The reason for having a trial is to establish guilt. Was Clinton's Guilt established before or after the proceedings?
You make yourself perfectly clear: the US is not answerable to any other state in the global community but may, on the other hand, do precisely as it pleases wherever it pleases.Townsend said:The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?
The world court unlike America does not seek to govern anybody. It's role is to administer justice. Do you have an issue with justice?Townsend said:The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?
And if I substitute the word 'teddybears' for 'terrorists' then obviously I mean all the people of the USA.Townsend said:That is an if that has not happened but if it did then I would assume that he means enough of the Iraqi people to be talking about the nation of Iraq.
The Earth IS our house and until 1984, when the USA took exception to a ruling by the world court against them over Niceragua, you also believed in the 'House Rules'.Townsend said:No, what are you talking about? If I was living in your house because I couldn't afford to take care of my self then I would have to agree to play by your rules. As it is, the world has not been able to prevent terrorism and is not taking the actions needed. As such to secure our nation against terrorism we are taking the action.
Oh, you missed it ... The world supported your invasion if Afghanistan. It was when you yanked your men from there leaving 15,000 to search for the person who actually now admits to blowing up the WTC and stuck the remainder of your forces ... 10X the amount into a country Colin Powell stated in 2001 had been neutered.Townsend said:Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?
Yeah ... and it's okay to outsource.Townsend said:The people are the concern of the government...
Yeah ... and what am I doing?Townsend said:I was stating my opinion not a fact. For instance, I think China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion that I am stating as an opinion, now compare that to. China is a terrorist nation. That is an opinion but it is being stated as a fact.
Sure. I believe you have decided on a course of action that will effectively make you like the USSR of the 1960's ... a pariah.Townsend said:The world court does not govern the people of the United States or their elected representative. I will never believe that it should, understand?
The Canadian approach:Art said:The world court unlike America does not seek to govern anybody. It's role is to administer justice. Do you have an issue with justice?
Peacekeeping is 'anachronistic'?For now, that's a safe bet, said Andrew Sullivan, vice-president of the polling firm EKOS Research Associates.
Canadians have an "enormously positive" view of their armed forces, although their understanding of their role in the world today is outdated, he said.
"We still subscribe to that anachronistic view of the peacekeepers ... it's an image that people cling to pretty tenaciously," Sullivan said.
One reason for that is that Canadians like to think their military is somehow different from the U.S. armed forces. Which is why the coming mission in Afghanistan could prove "jarring" to Canadians, he said.
Since everyone else missed this one... Aside from the fact that France has caught quite a few Al Qeada terrorists on behalf of the U.S. and 9-11, are you saying you don't care about terrorism in Madrid, or London, or anywhere except on American soil? Yet you feel these other countries are somehow beholding to us then?Townsend said:Well, then let's see it. I want France and Germany and Russia etc...to start going after Terrorist. I don't want another attack on American soil! Got it?
SOS2008 said:Since everyone else missed this one... Aside from the fact that France has caught quite a few Al Qeada terrorists on behalf of the U.S. and 9-11, are you saying you don't care about terrorism in Madrid, or London, or anywhere except on American soil? Yet you feel these other countries are somehow beholding to us then?
humour usThe message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.Townsend said:Thats not what I am saying and you know it.
Smurf said:humour usThe message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
I know the feeling.Townsend said:What is there to humour you about? She is saying that because I said one thing I am inferring something completely different. I never said that and I never meant that. Its just someone trying to put the right spin on words to make them seem like whatever suits them.
The Smoking Man said:I know the feeling.
Go.Townsend said:This is one of those situations where I am dammed if do and dammed if I don't. I bet you play a lot of chess.
You've said nothing. You're blaming the rest of the world for the US's problems even though they all disagreed with you doing what caused them in the first place.Townsend said:What is there to humour you about? She is saying that because I said one thing I am inferring something completely different. I never said that and I never meant that. Its just someone trying to put the right spin on words to make them seem like whatever suits them.
http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=277037Torture In America's Brutal Prisons
Posted: 07/18
From: ICH
Torture Inc. America's Brutal Prisons
Savaged by dogs, Electrocuted With Cattle Prods, Burned By Toxic Chemicals, Does such barbaric abuse inside U.S. jails explain the horrors that were committed in Iraq?
By Deborah Davies
They are just some of the victims of wholesale torture taking place inside the U.S. prison system that we uncovered during a four-month investigation for BBC Channel 4 . It’s terrible to watch some of the videos and realize that you’re not only seeing torture in action but, in the most extreme cases, you are witnessing young men dying.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1531401,00.htmlCourts resort to rushed justice
With Saddam Hussein's trial looming, Rory Carroll spent a day in court in Baghdad and found it to be secretive, overloaded and quick
In one case this week four men, a father, his two adult sons and a nephew, were accused of possessing a grenade and bomb-making equipment allegedly found by US troops in a raid on their home in Mosul in January.
The trial started at 10.17am. The men said the equipment was for welding and fixing televisions. They knew nothing about the grenade. A female prosecutor in a two-minute presentation demanded the nephew be acquitted but 20 years for the others. The defence lawyer, given the case an hour earlier and seeing his clients for the first time, repeated their explanations. The judges retired to deliberate at 10.50. Five minutes later they acquitted the nephew and sons but sentenced the father, Hassan Muslih, to 20 years because the house title deeds were in his name. US soldiers returned him to Abu Ghraib.
It seems likely the US will once again use their veto, as if approved, from the wording above, it would appear to formally recognise that Bush's invasion of Iraq constituted terrorism.UN seeks definition of terrorism
More than 60 people were killed in bomb blasts in Egypt on Saturday
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has urged world leaders to agree on a universal definition of terrorism...
A UN treaty has been stalled for years over the definition of a terrorist.
A new UN proposal calls terrorism any act intended to intimidate a population or to compel a government or an international body to act.
What, you mean like issuing resolutions?Art said:A new UN proposal calls terrorism any act intended to intimidate a population or to compel a government or an international body to act.