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An alternative for the system of God declared truths

  1. Jul 9, 2003 #1
    Why is the position of God declared truths in no way adequate to understand the world and to find truth?

    A theist position is a doctrine in that it starts with the doctrine that there is a God. The world in the way in which is exists is then attributed as being caused or created by God. Formerly a lot of things which were known to exist but not understood, where therefore attributed to the existence of God. It is obviously clear that this never has presented any real explenation, and real understanding and any real knowledge about the world, and of what that the world in first instance and in essence is. Within the system of thought that starts out with the doctrine of there being a God, there can be of course no real proof nor disproof about the existence of God. For that, one needs to look outside of this doctrine, and find truth itself. If God speaks to man and declares a truth, then we are confronted with the question weather that particular declared truth is true or not. If one adapts to the vision of theism, the truth of this particular statement, is decided upon solely on Gods word. So, for example, if God declares it to be the case that the moon is made of butter, then this truth is being regarded as being true solely because that is being declared as such by god, and being independend of the fact wether or not the moon in fact is composed of and made of butter.
    As it is stated (we have God's word on that) that the world is made by God, then in the theist vision, the fact that the world in fact exist, is a "proof" of God. This in disregard of the question of what in fact the world in first instance is, how it is formed, how we understand the world to be, and it's causes for being there at all and changing.

    How can we find truth outside of the system of God declared truths?

    Despite these declarations of truth, man has confronted these declarations of fundamentalist theist thought with the fact that wether or not a declared particular truth is in fact true, with the fact that such is not dependend in any way of that particular truth declaration, but solely dependend on reality itself. Wether or not the earth revolves around the sun is something, which is in no way dependend on whatever declaration of truth is ever made by anyone (including God), but solely dependend on wether or not in fact the earth revolves around the sun. In this way man has not only discovered truths, which seem to have no relation with any declared truth, but as can be pointed out, are in fact in flagrant contradiction with particular God declared truths. This not only shows that the closed system of thought as presented by theism, has fundamental flaws, but needs replacement alltogether. In a fundamental way this means that for any truth system to be valid, all statements of truth which have no other source then subjective interpretations of reality, whatever their source in fact is, must be thrown out in first instance, and not be considered of relevance other then their objective conformity with reality itself. This includes of course all statement regarding the supposed existence of God itself also, as well as all other declared truths, for which no objective evidence exist.
    In our drastic measures, in first instance we seem to be left with nothing at all. All our mental constructs are under recondsideration, and even the most trivial truths we have, must be admitted not to have relevance. This will unequivocally lead us to the most fundamental question in philiosophy, which is then the question: why is there something (anything at all) instead of nothing?

    That is where this in fact leads us! We are totally naked and deprived from all of our mental constructs, even our most precious thoughts about the world, and this is where it takes us! Wondering about why at all a world exist! How do we solve such a puzzle? And we don't even know if at all a viable answer to this question exists! Where are we going here? Where does it take us? We better get us some inner rest, cause we will need all of our mental capabilities to solve this horrific and tremendous puzzle. We are stunned and perplexed, as to where we have arrived. Is there a way out of this, or are we completely dazed and perplexd, and never find a solution to this big monstruous puzzle. What first amazes us that at first instance, no attempt at all, seems to work. If we have to assume that nothing, nothing at all, could be hold to exist, then how can there be at all a world? From nothing will not get us to something, even the infinitessimal something, the barely at all something. From nothing at all, from the inexistence of the world, we can not get something. Not in a thousand, not in a billion, not in a 10 to-the-power of 10 to-the-power of trillion years, and in fact not even time does exist.

    We must therefore make a truth statement here: There are no grounds at all to form something, to reason something, to conclude something when there is not something.
    From an inexisting world, we can not find any reason any fundation to why at all the world would exist or have to exist, if it in fact at all exist. So, either we are eternally blocked, since no world could have ever formed, if ever there was a state of total nothingness. So where is the way out here? This may appear to be a total block, an eternal barrier, a puzzle never to be solved by humankind, but it can become immediately clear to us, that even when we were exercising through this teeming question, the world itself and our pressence in it, as well as our mental cognitive powers have not left us, but remained present all the time. The world itself neither ourselves, have not left us, but are there. So even if none of our mental thoughts can be hold relevance, at least we have to conclude this: There is a world, and we are in it!

    We can not conclude in first instance anyt further then that, we have no idea of what the world in first instance is composed of. We only know just that: There is a world, in whatever form, and not nothing! As we sterted our mental excercise, we have stated that there was no possible way the world or anything could come into existence if there ever was a non-existing world, so the fact that there is in fact a world, whatever it is that the world in first instance is, it must have been there for all of eternity!

    That is what we can know, and what we must remember of being true. The fact that the world exist, must mean that since a non-existing world can not bring forth anything, that what the world in first instance is or forms, must have always been there! So THAT puzzle is solved then!

    Now onto the question of what the world in first instance is, or forms or shapes. For the world to exist, there must be something significant, some primary stuff that constitutes and shapes the world. Although we have no idea of what that primary substance in essence is, we know that it can not be dependend on anything else for it's existence. That what the world forms, shapes and makes the world to be, must be a primary substance which is not in any way dependend on anything else, since it must have existed at all time. What could that essential substance be?

    We go back to the discovery we just made, the discovery that the world in fact exist and does not not-exist. How was I able of making that very statement at all? I made this discovery by not just looking into the world, and see or perceive that it exist, but also by my mental processes, or whatever is it that constitutes my thinking and directs my actions. So this then calls for a hypothese of to what the world in primary essence could be. And here I have two options:
    • It could be that the world in first instance is that what forms and shapes me, causes me to exist to be able to think and conclude things. Although I have as of yet no idea of what that could be, I just call that my consciousness, and denote that as that what in essence is what I am about, makes me me, and enables me to think and to act.
    • And the alternative for this is, that if the world in essence would not be formed by that what constitutes me, then it needs to be something that is independend, apart from and outside of my consciousness.

    Now which one of these, could be the answer to that what is the essence of the world, that what in primary sence constitutes the world and forms and shapes the world. As of yet, we do not have much to go for, except that we need to adapt our former conclusion, which was that: that what is the primary stuff that forms and shapes the world, and is the essence of the world, needs to have been there for all time.

    Here we have a clue as to which of the above hypothesis is the correct one. It appears to me that my first hypothese, which was the hypothese that the world in first and primary instance is formed by my consciousness, can not be correct. Cause my consciouss thougths seem to be to go no further back then at most 40 years. Is there a possibility in which I could fit this hypothese with the former conclusion? Could it be that my conscious memories before that time are simply gone, but that I existed in another form before that time? Or could it be that the world happens to have formed at the same time with my consciousness? Since the hypothesis states that I am the primary substance of the world, this would then need to be the case, but this conflicts with the fact that that what the world in primary essence is, must be something that was there all the time.

    I therefore have to conclude that my first hypothesis is wrong, and therefore I have to adapt the second hypothesis, which states: that what the world forms and shapes, and what the world in essence is, and which existed in all time and has always existed, is a substance or essence which is apart from, outside and independend of my consciousness.
  2. jcsd
  3. Jul 9, 2003 #2


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    could one not believe that its a collective conciousness? Perhaps a energy in the universe undetected to date? Dark energy?

    Who knows?

    Nice post, not alot of time now, got a few questions for ya though.
  4. Jul 9, 2003 #3
    Yeah, I don't deny there is something like a collective consciousness (in fact the human consciousness must be tought of to be shaped and developed trhough society itself), but as a first principle of the world, that what the world in primary instance is, forms and shapes, and is independend of anything else, can not be something else as matter.

    For consciousness, or spirit or anything else, is always dependend on matter.

    Matter itself though is invisible. You can not see it, nor perceive or detect it in any way, since it is an abstract philosophical category. There are things like electrons, photons, quarks, energy, waves and fields of course, but they just denote specific forms of movement/energy which are collectivelu known as matter.

    I welcome your question, I hope I can answer them.

    Maybe you are interested in a more elaborated and sophisticated philosophical viewpoint about dialectical-materialism, which can be found through this http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/spirkin/works/dialectical-materialism/index.html" [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2017
  5. Jul 9, 2003 #4


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    Honestly it seems you answer my questions upon reviewing your first post.

    But essentially what your saying is abadoning the traditional fairy tale's about the universe, and try to identify the core substance that makes everything?

    And I suppose like others suggest that this core substance would be "God" so to speak?

    Kinda what I was suggesting. Are you certain that concsousness is strictly material? I've heard of people suggest the brain is essentially an attenna used to tranfer our thoughts to a physical body.

    Don't ask me where I heard that, probably here.

    Right now, I've read the intro of that link you given me. I don't believe I ever read much of that philosphy, but I'll give it a read. Thanks.
  6. Jul 9, 2003 #5
    God? Where does it mention God?
    I only referred to an essence that exists outside, apart from and independend from my consciousness.
    That is what I concluded.

    Now this is an abstract category, which we call matter. Matter you can not see or smell or taste or detect, because it is something abstract. Like one can not make love to womanhood, just to a specific and concrete woman.

    God is something realy very different, cause God is supposed to exist in spiritual form, not material form.

    Spirit, consciousness can be hold to be seperate entities of the world, by they are not what the world in essence is, since spirit and consciousness are dependend on matter, whereas matter is not dependend on anything else. Matter exists for itself, is the cause and the reason for itself.

    No! Consciousness is NOT material. Where does it state that?
    Even so, without matter, consciousness would not exist. I can not think without a brain. Even so, my thoughts are not like atoms or anything like that.

    Look at it like this. For a program to run you need software and hardware. The software is not something material itself, but evenso without hardware or matter, a program could not exist or perform anything.

    I think it is for sure worth reading about dialectical-materialism.
    It is far the best philosophical point of view that is comformant with reality itself. It is not a closed belief system, like theism is.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2003
  7. Jul 14, 2003 #6
    brave effort this. pray continue. i will join in when convinient
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