- #36
Ivan Seeking
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
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The last rescue worker has emerged and no one is left down below. What a fantastic success story!
Yay! This is a wonderful result. Let's hope that none of the miners ever feels the need to return to that occupation. It might be hard to go back down, even if one's family relied on that money.Ivan Seeking said:The last rescue worker has emerged and no one is left down below. What a fantastic success story!
You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!jarednjames said:- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
Are you really going to put a price on these peoples lives? I'd like to see you say that if your father was down there. Have a bit of heart.
But no, I'm sure that an economic analysis would show it unjustifiable to save them.
Does that mean the Chilean government paid the miners and paid for the rescues? Was NASA's involvement donated by the US govt?rootX said:IIRC from the last month, the company went bankrupt and families were well compensated.
russ_watters said:You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!
russ_watters said:You were on the 'the firefighters should have put out the fire even though the guy didn't pay is $75 fee' side too, weren't you? Similar issue: like it or not, there is a cost associated with these things and *someone* has to pay it. It's a legitimate question and the answer is not as simple as you are making it out to be. You can't just throw the analysis out the window and do what your heart tells you in all life and death situations. Heck, in a lot of cases, that'll end up causing more deaths than it prevents!
rootX said:I had been thinking of few things:
- Can the cost of saving those miners be justified
arildno said:I don't see why it would be wrong to implement a licensing system for minimg companies where they only can get a license if they accept the obligation to do their utmost (also financially) to save the lives of their employers if an accident occurs.
Why would it "kill" mining?Borek said:This is interesting.
I guess this would kill some high risk industries. Mining being one of them.
But basically that puts us back on square 1 - how much is life worth?
russ_watters said:I watched and felt compelled by the drama and emotion and I hate myself for it. How many starving children in Africa died because the Chilean government chose to do this rescue instead of using the money to save them? Did I hear about this mine collapse when it happened? I think I did, but I can't be sure - how can I be so callous as to not have cared enough about their deaths to even remember, but now I'm excited that they lived? Doesn't that just make their life and death situation a made-for-tv event packaged for my personal amusement (and, of course, the advertising money)? It angers me that I fall for such things and that I place such little value on human life when it isn't a compelling drama.
arildno said:If, for example, the price of a gold watch quadruples as the result, then don't buy one.
jarednjames said:Surely the mine owners could just take out insurance to cover an eventuality such as this?
Borek said:To get back to your idea - miners in most countries are already paid much better than many other groups of workers. That's the compensation for the risk. You want to move the risk to owners - if you don't want to go bankrupt to save your workers, don't go into mining. r.
Borek said:From what I read this was a copper mine. In the case of copper price going up four times it is not a matter of 'don't buy', effects on the world economy will be disastrous.
Well - we'll see how far that goes.President Sebastian Pinera posed with the miners, most of whom were wearing bathrobes and slippers, for a group photo, and then celebrated the rescue as an achievement that will bring Chile a new level of respect around the world.
The miners and the country will never be the same, Pinera said.
"They have experienced a new life, a rebirth," he said, and so has Chile: "We aren't the same that we were before the collapse on Aug. 5. Today Chile is a country much more unified, stronger and much more respected and loved in the entire world."
The billionaire businessman-turned-politician also promised "radical" changes and tougher safety laws to improve how businesses treat their workers.
Honors and offers of jobs and even vacations poured in from around the world for men who walked into a mine on Aug. 5 as workers doing a dirty job to support their children or buy a house. They were lifted out weeks later to find themselves international symbols of perseverance — as well as icons of patriotism at home.
Spain's Real Madrid football team invited the 33 to attend a game in their stadium. Chile's football federation said it would offer a job with its youth teams to Franklin Lobos, a former national team player who had later found himself driving a taxi to make ends meet before he was caught in the mine collapse.
. . . .
And a Greek mining company offered to fly each one, with a companion, for a week's vacation in the Mediterranean.
The rescue will end up costing "somewhere between $10 (million) and $20 million," a third covered by private donations with the rest coming from state-owned miner Codelco — the country's largest company_ and the government itself, Pinera said.
Quinzio said:I am really astonished at how the human mind is defective and incapable of clear thinking.
Ok, I watched the rescue and got emotional, and I was happy to see them free and with their families again, I imagined how you can survive 2 month buried alive, and all the rest
Let's estimate how many people dies every day of work related accidents ? Let's stay conservative.
100 ? 200 ?
It makes about 5 people each hour.
So even the rate of saving of the miner (roughly about 1 every hour) doesn't beat the ratio of people diyng elsewhere.
While 1 chilean miner was saved, maybe 2 chinese, 1 african, 1 pakisatan workers died in their work place.
It makes a net of 4 deads.
Now that the rescue is over, the net ratio is bak to 5 dead evey hour.
Is it a reason to be happy ? To think that 5 dies and 1 survive ?
Excuse my english but it is not my language (I'm italian).
What were the odds ?Ivan Seeking said:What makes this unique is that they beat the odds.
Those who survive cancer are stories of unlikely survival, not this one.It is a story of highly unlikely survival
The millions of people who lasted for month before diyng in a concetration camp during World War II, had a much worse experience.unimaginable endurance,
To dig an half meter diameter hole ?an improbable and unprecedented rescue,
No we are all losing in Chile.and one where the human spirit is victorious on all fronts.
Ok, I'll watch my steps.We all know that we could die tomorrow while crossing the street, or driving a car, or by slipping in the bathtub.
But what gives us hope, what allows us carry on each day, is the belief that we can beat the odds. Stories like this speak to our will to live.
Quinzio said:What were the odds ?
Once provided food and air you can spend your life 600m below ground.
You think that was the goal here?Quinzio said:What were the odds ?
Once provided food and air you can spend your life 600m below ground.
arildno said:It is a totalitarian, and deeply immoral misunderstanding that if we can't save everyone then we are in no position to feel relief that SOME were saved.
Furthermore, if we have limited resources, and one group cannot be saved unless we choose not to save another, we are STILL entitled to feel relieved at those we DID save.
COPIAPO, Chile (Reuters) – Most of Chile's 33 rescued miners are honoring a pact of silence about the worst of their ordeal, but one indicated on Sunday he would talk if paid and another set the record straight about what didn't happen.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/emergency-mine-rescue.htmlEmergency Mine Rescue
Engineers and NASA scientists aid an all-out effort to save 33 Chilean miners trapped nearly half a mile underground. Premiering October 26, 2010 on PBS.