Anti-matter/matter combination.

  • Thread starter hakon
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  • #26
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here is why i say we can make a gravity field.

the matter and anti-matter are annihilated completely through the use of electromagnetic fields (we don't use a singularity when using this for gravity field applications), this means we are left with photons and gravity, what we have lost is all the stuff that takes up physical space. it's as if we remove the rock we want to stand on from the 3 dimensions of space.

if we are able to then force the gravity to act in 1 direction (1 dimension) then our gravity field will be stronger and the matter and anti-matter required to produce the gravity field will be a lesser amount.

the real question is: is there gravity left over or is the gravity=photons, experiments suggest that 2 photons are produced from a electron and proton combining, but that would mean the gravity is less then the original product, so it is only logical to think extra gravity must be produced.

gravity is thought to be as strong as the electro magnetic force by some scientists, however we experience it as a weaker force due to extra dimensions that gravity splits it's self upon.
so if we can get gravity to act i 1 dimension then we could make the field far stronger then normal, meaning the masses of the matter and anti-matter annihilation process would not need to equal half an earth each to create an earth like gravity.

our technology is nowhere what is needed to be able to create a process like this in the near future, however i do think it may be possible to create a gravity field in this manner.
 
  • #27
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I don't think it matters if there isn't mass in the black hole. You can't touch it either way, or you get sucked in, anything that get's on it's way is toast. If there is a black hole made out of photons (lets just suppose) under the floor of a spaceship, it would attract everything that has mass with gravity and suck it up. So in the end I don't think it would be possible to determine if the black hole is made out of photons nor does it really matter, it acts the same way, just sucks up everything.

If it is possible to amplify gravity somehow, you could just make the floor hypergravitational, no need to have black holes eating you up with the ship.
 
  • #28
Drakkith
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the matter and anti-matter are annihilated completely through the use of electromagnetic fields (we don't use a singularity when using this for gravity field applications), this means we are left with photons and gravity, what we have lost is all the stuff that takes up physical space. it's as if we remove the rock we want to stand on from the 3 dimensions of space.

if we are able to then force the gravity to act in 1 direction (1 dimension) then our gravity field will be stronger and the matter and anti-matter required to produce the gravity field will be a lesser amount.
The dimensions of space do not simply disappear. Photons are just as 3 dimensional as anything else. And you cannot cause gravity to act in only 1 dimension.

the real question is: is there gravity left over or is the gravity=photons, experiments suggest that 2 photons are produced from a electron and proton combining, but that would mean the gravity is less then the original product, so it is only logical to think extra gravity must be produced.
I'm assuming you mean an electron and positron? The mass of the two particles are converted into two photons. According to General Relativity, photons affect the stress-energy tensor and do cause gravitational attraction. The gravity would be exactly equal to the two annihilated particles I believe.

what we have lost is all the stuff that takes up physical space
This is incorrect. Matter and energy exist within space, they do not make it up. The reason for the "physical space" we are used to, as in objects having volume, is because there are three dimensions for them to form into.
i am fully in my right to claim anything i like to find my answers, as nothing can be disproved or proved at this time, this is purely a, if this is true, would this not be the result argument. science often takes leaps to find answers, and saying a singularity is a dense ball of matter is an accepted plausibility.
Not on this forum you are not. Not within the rules you agreed to when you signed up to the forums.

as for your 3rd paragraph, well of course i have no evidence other then theory, this is a theory not something i claim i can prove, you seem very unknowledgeable about the difference between a hypothetical and a "i'm a scientist with unlimited funds and can prove this" discussion. i merely state that when you combine matter and anti-matter completely (so no kinetic energy can throw the particles not annihilated away, all that should be left is photons, and the gravity that the atoms used to impart on the universe, and that maybe down the track we can use the gravity portion from this annihilation process to provide an artificial gravity.
You cannot combine matter and antimatter in a way that would allow ALL of the particles to annihilate without the created photons themselves imparting momentum onto the matter and antimatter and flinging them away.

Also, the amount of EM radiation required to possibly create artificial gravity is so large, you could not contain it within anything small enough to use it. It's like taking a laser a billion billion times more powerful than anything here on earth and trying to contain it. Not going to happen.
 
  • #29
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Not on this forum you are not. Not within the rules you agreed to when you signed up to the forums.
Go take that dribble else where.

I am well within the boundaries of the rules of this site, which quite clearly states that people may put forward ideas, if you can show reason to disprove my hypothesis go ahead and do so.

but you cant just say my argument is flawed when you your self can't prove that is impossible to annihilate 100% of a ball of matter and a ball of anti-matter.
 
  • #30
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Could you please say again what your argument is?

Inside black holes physics laws break down and we don't know what's in there.

Even if such word like matter and antimatter have meaning in the singularity and if they do annihilate each other, there would just be a regular black hole that acts like one.

You could probably use the gravity of the black hole for something useful before you get eaten up by it. Is that the argument? Why bother with antimatter and matter if any black hole will do?
 
  • #31
Ryan_m_b
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Go take that dribble else where.

I am well within the boundaries of the rules of this site, which quite clearly states that people may put forward ideas, if you can show reason to disprove my hypothesis go ahead and do so.

but you cant just say my argument is flawed when you your self can't prove that is impossible to annihilate 100% of a ball of matter and a ball of anti-matter.
Quoting from the rules

It is against our Posting Guidelines to discuss, in most of the PF forums or in blogs, new or non-mainstream theories or ideas that have not been published in professional peer-reviewed journals or are not part of current professional mainstream scientific discussion. Personal theories/Independent Research may be submitted to our Independent Research Forum, provided they meet our Independent Research Guidelines; Personal theories posted elsewhere will be deleted
You cannot put forward an idea that conflicts with current mainstream understanding and then say that you are in the right because no one has disproved you.

Read the Drakkith's post again, It's saying what I have clearly failed to make you realise in the rest of this thread. You have some misconceptions which is fine except you are sticking to them so that you can keep your idea of artificial SciFi gravity.

gravity is thought to be as strong as the electro magnetic force by some scientists, however we experience it as a weaker force due to extra dimensions that gravity splits it's self upon.
so if we can get gravity to act i 1 dimension then we could make the field far stronger then normal, meaning the masses of the matter and anti-matter annihilation process would not need to equal half an earth each to create an earth like gravity.
There is no firm evidence to explain the strength of gravity. Regardless what you are talking about is pure speculation, the idea of forcing gravity in one direction and strengthening it has no basis in mainstream understanding. Yet again though why would you need Am/M? If you had a magic machine that can strengthen and direct gravity then why wouldn't you just use mass rather than Am/M?

You really should start providing some references to peer-reviewed sources rather than just continue to spout pseudo-scientific ideas. Otherwise this thread will probably be locked.
 
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  • #32
Danger
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Forgive me if I repeat something that has already been stated; I had to quit reading about half-way through the second page.
It seems that someone has no idea that a "black hole" is not a physical object. It is a "hole" in the local spacetime continuum caused by a gravitational field that is too condensed for our universe to contain. Once something passes the event horizon, there's no going back. The only two ways to extract energy from the BH are through a "slingshot" manoeuvre as can be done with any large mass, or to exploit the ergosphere of the BH. BH's have several different relevant radii associated with them. Static limit, ergosphere, photon shell, event horizon, singularity...
They are not something to be easily exploited, and the matter or antimatter discussion in reference to a BH is totally irrelevant. If something approaches too closely, it's done for. Keep in mind, though, that the overall strength of the gravitational field is the same that it would be for any other object of that mass.
It's not physically possible for this particular event to occur, but I'm going to use it as an example. If our sun were to suddenly become a black hole without any of the attendant problems, the orbits of the various planets and moons would not be disrupted in any way. The gravity will be the same as it was with the original sun, but more concentrated.
Jeez, but I wish that Space Tiger was still around to deal with this stuff...
 
  • #33
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Here's the thing, there is no such thing as pure energy, it comes in the forms kinetic, heat, sound and light.
Really? Where did you get that information?

Classically, we think of energy as "transforming" from one type to another (e.g. kinetic energy converted to heat energy); it's nothing more than acknowledging energy conservation in the classical regime.

However, energy is a tad different in the quantum regime. For example, there's such a thing as vacuum energy--which is quite cool, by the way. It's "pure" energy in the sense that it's NOT kinetic, NOT heat, NOT sound, and NOT light energy (being made of virtual particles...it's not really anything except energy).
 
  • #34
Danger
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(being made of virtual particles...it's not really anything except energy).
But since virtual particles don't actually exist, would that not constitute virtual energy which work can not be extracted from?
 
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  • #35
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But since virtual particle don't actually exist, would that not constitute virtual energy which work can not be extracted from?
Two Casimir plates being squooshed together...virtual work?

ETA: I've read this thread two times now and I cannot understand the OP's logic one bit. It's like some sort of gibberish. I keep hearing the words "black holes", "gravity," "anti-matter," but they're never strung together in any way that makes any sense to me. Am I really the only one who doesn't understand what's going on in this thread?
 
  • #36
Danger
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Am I really the only one who doesn't understand what's going on in this thread?
Not at all. I got involved only because of the absurdity of what I was reading in reference to the very subjects that you mentioned. I know a reasonable bit about black holes and antimatter, and I know that gravitons are merely hypothetical. The attempt to make a Pangalacticgarbleblaster out of them just struck me as too weird to ignore.
(And I am embarrassed to admit that I don't know anything about the Casimir effect. I've heard of it, of course, but never investigated it.) Isn't that the base concept of the ZPM's in the "Stargate SG1" and "Stargate Atlantis" shows?
That's not a put-down, just a point of curiosity. I honestly don't know whether or not that is a possible resource.
 
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  • #37
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for a quick recap on the things being discussed, since some have trouble following.

the first question asked was about what would happen in the event of 1 black hole being combined with 1 black hole which originated from the collapsed star made of anti-matter, both being of equal proportion, and assuming the matter and anti-matter in each singularity is still able to work while under the immense pressure.

the answer concluded was the black holes size would double from the 2 into 1, however from the outside no change would occur, on the inside it would be nothing but photons, however the amount of photons created from 2 such objects would not be enough to sustain the same gravity, hence there must be extra gravity created. wether these are just a field, force or a hypothetical particle called a graviton is unknown, but gravity must be made in some form.

the second question was: if you can force the anti-matter and matter to completely act with each other through electro-magnetics or whatever you like other then a black hole could the complete reaction of the 2 charge apposed materials then create photons and gravity.

no one wanted to answer the question or provide any sort of rational reason on what would occur so i simply went on without them.

i then suggested, if gravity is left over maybe we could use it through some yet unknown application of physics.


and as this is a question waiting for people to provide their physics knowledge as to why or why not a anti-matter and matter combination would or would not create gravity, this topic is following the forum rules under quote "There are many open questions in physics, and we welcome discussion on those subjects provided the discussion remains intellectually sound."
Remember there is no such thing as a stupid question except 1 which is not asked, i am asking about in depth knowledge in regards to a matter anti-matter combination, if you know the answer please fill me in.

and as for the person who said there are only 2 ways to exploit a black hole, can you not also use it as a battery in the sense of using the hawking radiation it gives off as a power source. unless that's what you meant by ergosphere.
 
  • #38
Ryan_m_b
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on the inside it would be nothing but photons, however the amount of photons created from 2 such objects would not be enough to sustain the same gravity, hence there must be extra gravity created. wether these are just a field, force or a hypothetical particle called a graviton is unknown, but gravity must be made in some form.
Why do you assume that a black hole made from a collapsed star will contain anything other than a singularity on the inside? Moreover why would an equal amount of photons not have the same gravity as the mass that annihilated to make it?

the second question was: if you can force the anti-matter and matter to completely act with each other through electro-magnetics or whatever you like other then a black hole could the complete reaction of the 2 charge apposed materials then create photons and gravity.

no one wanted to answer the question or provide any sort of rational reason on what would occur so i simply went on without them.

i then suggested, if gravity is left over maybe we could use it through some yet unknown application of physics.
A few fallacies here, first as has been adequately explained it would be difficult to completely annihilate Am/M because the resultant blast would knock some of the as yet annihilated Am/M away.

The next fallacy you make is to presume that your previous proposal (that the gravity well of the resultant photons would not equal that of the previous mass) is true. This leads you to erroneously claim that there is something missing that is creating gravity and then suggest that we could use this unknown to create directional and hyper-powered gravity for artificial gravity purposes.

this topic is following the forum rules under quote "There are many open questions in physics, and we welcome discussion on those subjects provided the discussion remains intellectually sound."
Remember there is no such thing as a stupid question except 1 which is not asked, i am asking about in depth knowledge in regards to a matter anti-matter combination, if you know the answer please fill me in.
Your arguments are not intellectually sound; You claim that photons created from the annihilation of matter do not account for strength of the gravity field created. Yet you provide no evidence from this other than repeating yourself. You state,

the real question is: is there gravity left over or is the gravity=photons, experiments suggest that 2 photons are produced from a electron and proton combining, but that would mean the gravity is less then the original product, so it is only logical to think extra gravity must be produced.
but this just shows your misunderstanding. For a start the antiparticle to a proton is an antiproton and the antiparticle of the electron is a positron.. Secondly you claim that the photons cannot account for the gravity yet do not explain why.

It is also not intellectually sound to claim that we have a gap in our knowledge and then fill that gap with claims regarding strengthening and directing gravity.
 
  • #39
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however the amount of photons created from 2 such objects would not be enough to sustain the same gravity, hence there must be extra gravity created. wether these are just a field, force or a hypothetical particle called a graviton is unknown, but gravity must be made in some form.
I have the same question, why do you say that the photons would not have the same amount of gravity as the black hole had before? How did you come to that conclusion? Everything is stuck in the black hole and assuming they can still react to make photons in the singularity, none of it gets lost.
 
  • #40
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i come to this conclusion based on we know that up to 2 photons are made when an electron and a positron are annihilated together, 2 photons do not have the same mass as 1 electron and a positron, atleast from figures i have seen.
 
  • #41
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I found which of the theories for black holes is the 1 i am basing this on. It is:
A singularity in solutions of the Einstein field equations
and it is one of two things:
a situation where matter is forced to be compressed to a point (a space-like singularity)
a situation where certain light rays come from a region with infinite curvature (time-like singularity)

so effectively from my understanding putting 2 black holes (1 of matter origination and 1 of anti-matter origination) together, the black hole would go from a space like singularity to a time like singularity.

According to Penrose however: The energy condition required for the black-hole singularity theorem is weak: it says that light rays are always focused together by gravity, never drawn apart, and this holds whenever the energy of matter is non-negative.

So here we have 1 black hole with light focused together and 1 where light is spread apart, this would leave us with a black hole consisting of photons with a charge neither negative or positive. leaving us with a result that would not make sense.

(of course both singularities would have to be the exact mass and composition)
 
  • #42
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i come to this conclusion based on we know that up to 2 photons are made when an electron and a positron are annihilated together, 2 photons do not have the same mass as 1 electron and a positron, atleast from figures i have seen.
A photon may not have mass, but it still has energy and can curve spacetime. No need to have "extra gravity created" whatever you mean by that.
 
  • #43
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So here we have 1 black hole with light focused together and 1 where light is spread apart, this would leave us with a black hole consisting of photons with a charge neither negative or positive.
Why would one black hole focus light and the other diverge light? Anti-matter behaves just like ordinary matter, even in a gravitational field. Both such black holes are going to "focus" light.
 
  • #44
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so your suggestion is that the photons left behind create a singularity comprised of a time warp where t=infinity rather then a singularity of gravity G=infinity.
 
  • #45
Ryan_m_b
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so your suggestion is that the photons left behind create a singularity comprised of a time warp where t=infinity rather then a singularity of gravity G=infinity.
I can't even make sense of this. If the original mass is dense enough to form a black hole then it will. If you annihilate Am/M then you may create a black hole from the blast concentrating photons into one dense area but I don't see what you mean by photons left behind, time warp, and the rest.

The question was what evidence do you have to support the claim that the photons produced from annihilation have less of a gravitational effect than the original mass?
 
  • #46
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I can't even make sense of this.
Don't even try. I've read through this thread a few times and it makes less sense to me now than it did before. Perhaps if I were tripping acid or something, I'd "get" it...
 
  • #47
Ryan_m_b
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Don't even try. I've read through this thread a few times and it makes less sense to me now than it did before. Perhaps if I were tripping acid or something, I'd "get" it...
I'm confused as to who and what some posts are replying to. Like you I've re-read a few times to see if I'm not getting anything but enlightenment isn't coming :confused:
 
  • #48
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I'm confused as to who and what some posts are replying to. Like you I've re-read a few times to see if I'm not getting anything but enlightenment isn't coming :confused:
Yup and yup.
 
  • #49
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Using a Positronium as my example.
the mass of 1 electron is 9.10938291(40)×10−31 kg
the mass of 1 positron is 9.10938291(40)×10−31 kg

The two particles annihilate each other to produce two gamma ray photons after an average lifetime of 142 ns in vacuum.

leaving behind 2 photons, whose mass is so near 0 we say they have <1×10−18 eV

1 MeV: is about twice the rest mass-energy of an electron.

hence what is produced does not equal what we started with, 1+1 is not equaling 2, so where does the mass go?
 
  • #50
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hence what is produced does not equal what we started with, 1+1 is not equaling 2, so where does the mass go?
The destroyed mass was converted to energy à la Einstein. And since energy can cause spacetime to bend, the black hole is still there.
 

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