People with this neurological condition have trouble in relationships because they were born that way...
People with true aspergers have problems understanding emotions, some can't make eye contact, they can't read facial expressions, they tend to take things literally, will be afraid of meeting in person, etc... I have attempted dating two men with asperger's.What is your point. Many "normal" folk have trouble in relationships too.
This seems to be a typical neuro-typical's (NT) view of such things.People with this neurological condition have trouble in relationships because they were born that way...
Where are you getting this information?This seems to be a typical neuro-typical's (NT) view of such things.
From my experience, it is a judgemental view, because it seems to me that relationship problems are associated with the neurotypical types, not the Asperger's types:
NT+NT -> relationship issues are common. (Both sides may have their own ideas on relationships = unbalanced = problems to overcome)
NT+Asperger -> relationship issues are usual. (One side will likely have their own ideas on how the relationship should go = unbalanced = problems to overcome)
Asperger+Asperger -> relationship issues are uncommon. (Neither has a clue = balanced = no expectations therefore no problems to overcome)
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aspergers-syndrome/DS00551/DSECTION=symptomsAsperger's syndrome symptoms include:
Engaging in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is listening or trying to change the subject
Displaying unusual nonverbal communication, such as lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, or awkward body postures and gestures
Showing an intense obsession with one or two specific, narrow subjects, such as baseball statistics, train schedules, weather or snakes
Appearing not to understand, empathize with or be sensitive to others' feelings Having a hard time "reading" other people or understanding humor
Speaking in a voice that is monotonous, rigid or unusually fast Moving clumsily, with poor coordination
To study the personality characteristics of adults with Asperger syndrome, and investigate the value of self-rating personality inventories, we administered the Temperament and Character Inventory (TCI) to 31 outpatients with Asperger syndrome. The TCI is a self-rating personality inventory that has been validated in the Swedish general population. The results were compared with age- and sex-matched norm groups. Participants with Asperger syndrome scored significantly higher on harm avoidance and lower on self-directedness and cooperativeness. Reward dependence and novelty seeking tended to be low. They also had significantly higher rarity scores, reflecting idiosyncratic perspectives. The most common temperament configurations were 'obsessional', 'passive-dependent' and'explosive'. Character, reflecting conceptual maturity, was poorly developed in the majority of our subjects. The self-ratings of persons with Asperger syndrome thus indicated anxious personalities with coping difficulties in the areas of social interaction and self-directedness, a picture corresponding to the clinical descriptions of Asperger syndrome.
You are asking where I am getting this information when I have said it is from my experience!?Where are you getting this information?
Sorry, I didn't realize your entire post was anecdotal. Have you've been diagnosed with aspergers? I am very close to 2 men with asperger's and I keep forgetting that they can't get humor or metaphors or jokes most of the time. As I said they can't make eye contact, they're afraid of meeting people or being in situations they are not familar with. They don't get emotions, as one guy told me, Ok, this is another "deer in the headlights" moment, meaning he's not able to understand the emotional event I am describing.You are asking where I am getting this information when I have said it is from my experience!?
Through my eyes, ears and other senses.... it's where most people get the information of their experiences from (well, not my eyes and ears, that is to say).
There was no problem with the relationships. Their aspergers made it impossible to date. One guy would select a location, then he'd have to map the place out and have his getaway planned if he got too overwhelmed, then end up canceling anyway because he was too afraid he'd flop. He's in his 40's and still can't date.But enough about me (!), what about you. If you think my description of relationships is in error, let me ask you this (if I may); these guys you were seeing - who had the problem 'with' the relationship. Was it they that thought the relationship wasn't working out, or you? Who was it who actually 'had' the relationship problem?
This is the point of my comment above. Sure, I understand that it wasn't the relationship* you wanted, but was it a problem for you that he was like that, or that he felt his behaviour was a problem for the relationship?Their aspergers made it impossible to date.
No, I had no problem, I was willing to do whatever was needed to make them comfortable. They were the ones that decided they were incapable of ever having a relationship with anyone. No matter how encouraging I was, they were too afraid. They are both still alone.This is the point of my comment above. Sure, I understand that it wasn't the relationship* you wanted, but was it a problem for you that he was like that, or that he felt his behaviour was a problem for the relationship?
I'm afraid I don't follow at all. Let's give a counterexample: suppose that I'm in a relationship and this person cheats on me. I'm hurt about this, but I can't blame that hurt on the other person's actions?D'you see what I am getting at? How is it that they get the 'blame' for not being good in relationships when it's actually because the other isn't prepared to accept them for who they are and how they act? It is illogical to critique another person for your reaction to a given scenario.
The main thing these two people had in common was that they were brilliant, and they were more open and honest than most people.I don't know that much about Asperger's, but my son is on the Autistic Spectrum. From my experience with him and his classmates I find that there is as much variation in the ASD spectrum as there is in the general population. It's easy to get a distorted picture of what these kids are like by what you read in the media and especially from the internet. No description is going to cover a wide selection of the ASD population.
I understand that autism and asperger are considered the same scale with different intensities. I wonder however if, say-the sensory intensity of Asperger- is related to the social deficiencies of Autism. Could it be two dimensions, unrelated? Can somebody with intense sensory issues have a very high social EQ, totally non-autistic? In that case, could it be that behavior, due to the intense feelings, can be misinterpreted as social deficient?He experiences life in a magnified way. Everything is larger to him.
Its not so much the intensity, as the end of the scale parameters they are on.I have a nephew and a friend "diagnosed" with asperger
I understand that autism and asperger are considered the same scale with different intensities. I wonder however if, say-the sensory intensity of Asperger- is related to the social deficiencies of Autism. Could it be two dimensions, unrelated? Can somebody with intense sensory issues have a very high social EQ, totally non-autistic? In that case, could it be that behavior, due to the intense feelings, can be misinterpreted as social deficient?
I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.I understand that autism and asperger are considered the same scale with different intensities. I wonder however if, say-the sensory intensity of Asperger- is related to the social deficiencies of Autism.
CMB, you sound as if you really have a chip on your shoulder. Your repeated attempts at making what is considered "normal" seem bad and deficient is a bit pathetic to be honest. It sounds like you have a lot of issues. You can stop your ranting now.I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.
This sounds so much like what I've seen from my aspie friends. Sometimes I wondered if I set off their behaviour so I have tried to stop arguing and just agree with them until they get it out of their system. They remind me of a bulldog that's sunk it's teeth into something and there is no use in trying to make them let go.Its not so much the intensity, as the end of the scale parameters they are on.
If you think of their consciousness as analogous to a telescope, those on one end of the spectrum are seeing life through the view finder.....a tightly focused attention on a very narrow target, with nothing else in the field of view....
..and those on the other end of the spectrum are viewing life through the opposite end, blown up larger, with a wide field of view, but with blurs and distortions due to the "fish eye" effect, etc.
Its part of the same disorder, but there are two ends. For some, their telescope has a larger or smaller field of view...more like a spotting scope or opera glasses perhaps, and the distortions are less severe, from either end.
As people with Aspergers tend to be highly intelligent, and classically focused on a particular interest....they can become experts in a field, or incredible at pinball, or other specialized pursuit for example
Because of that focus though, the rest of the world doesn't register well. If you see through a telescope, and you are into dinosaurs as your focus...you are looking for dinosaur related opportunities so to speak, and ignoring the other topics.
A normal person will notice others yawning, or chewing their arms off to escape a dinosaur related discussion...and take appropriate actions, perhaps changing the subject for example. The Asperger sufferer will tend to be so into the dinosaur discussion, and so happy to be talking about dinosaurs to people, that he will fail to notice/register that those people are trying to escape, looking at their watches, yawning, feigning death, etc. HE'S having a great time.
The Asperger sufferer tends not to see himself reflected by others, self awareness can be very limited. Comments along the lines of "doesn't he see what he looks like?" would be more common, as they might be too focused on their particular interest, or anxiety, etc, to look at themselves, or on others' reaction to them. They tend to interact more with people as opposed to those with the narrow spectrum autism conditions, but to misinterpret the interactions.
The sufferers at the other end of the spectrum may not even acknowledge the existence of others, or of dinosaurs, but may be so tightly focused that all they are aware of is a spinning plate or a button, etc....and this is a much harder transition point socially, as other people are potentially not on their radar.
The autism is therefore present in different degrees and spectrum ends, and how that leaves the person with resources to compensate therefore varies greatly. Some can develop genuine and deep empathy for others, and eventually notice and redirect conversations or behavioral patterns accordingly, and others have less success, but, its always a question of degree.
What comes naturally to a normal person might take decades for a person with mild Aspergers, and never happen for a severe case.
So as to if the intense feelings can be misinterpreted by others as a social deficiency, well, its the expression mode of the intense feelings that lead to the interpretations.
IE: We might all get excited at a party if physics or one of our topics of interest is broached, but, most of us will tone down our responses based upon our perception of the others present, and allow the conversation to go where the group is interested naturally....and we might even have other interests we would be happy to converse about as well, etc....just like everyone else....
...but the Aspy might have trouble letting it go, or letting someone else talk, and might over react to the opportunity. You or I may feel a bit wistful if the topics we're most interested in seem to have been a merely passing mention, but the Aspy might get really angry or upset, and react as if he'd been attacked or affronted, perhaps insisting that the topic he's interested in be the one we all must discuss now. This will be interpreted as a social deficiency, as the actions will seem out of scale to the supposed infraction/issue.
As the medical problem itself impairs how one views and interprets others, its very nature reduces the ability to interact as easily.
These ARE reasonable observations for you to make, given that you do not understand the entire context, and instead focus on the part of the context of interest to you/on your personal radar.I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.
Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations? None of the 'typical characteristics' given above about Asperger or Autism so far seem like any sort of 'disability', other than the fact that NT's are choosing to see them as disabilities. I consider it very judgemental. So what that a person doesn't look at you when you are talking with them? So what they get excited about something you find dull, but are blank about something you think they should be getting excited about? What's the issue? Why LABEL it as a deficiency?
I find typical NT's are typically deficient in many traits that I do not see for people I would regard to be comfortably within the Asperger spectrum.
My personal observations/interpretations:
NT's get overly emotional about matters they regard as personal sleights or signs of disrespect, their behaviour is capricious and inconsistent, they over-look the obvious, they decline to argue a point until each detail and element is properly resolved and seek to close down a discussion quick and disallow all the germane information to be raised (probably because it is an attention-span overload for them - and/or where they have an 'emotional attachment' to the point they are arguing), they use 'intuition' instead of logic or at least allow logic to be overruled by their 'feelings'. Worst of all they tell Aspergers types who see the world as a daunting, confusing place that it is because they, the Aspies, are the incapable ones and they have to learn to 'overcome their disability'; whereas in fact the world IS a confusing place and they are just seeing it for how it really is, all at once where an NT has mental blocks put in place that they do not see the bigger picture all in one go. (I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other. 'Coping strategies' may be required to deal with the world, but that's no excuse to imply Aspies are the ones with the issue for seeing the world as a daunting, confusing place - often made confusing by public-admin inconsistencies generated by NT's.)
NT's put up barriers of perception that enable their limited attention spans to deal with one small piece at a time, but that also means they may miss the interconnections that may explain the whole. NT's have to rely on what they call their 'intuition', which is probably just the teeny Autistic-capable part of their brain flagging up that they are not seeing something obvious, if only they could expand and maintain their attention (maybe it'd help if the NT's could cut out all the emotional baggage that interferes with their 'logical' deductions).
NT's have physical disabilities too - anecdotally their sense of smell and hearing seem impaired (compared with Aspies/Autistics), they can't see fluorescent lights flashing blue and yellow (they sell monitors and televisions with such a bizarrely low refresh rate of 50 or 60Hz that most Autistic types can't look at it without their eyes watering - thank goodness for LCD monitors!!). NT's illogical and irrational decisions are plain in many an administrative errors, who then try to cover up their mistakes rather than just saying 'I did that, sorry' like a typical Asperger spectrum type would. NT's also seem to have an impaired sense of touch and feel, though I have not noticed that they are more or less 'clumsy' than 'fully functional' Aspies/Autists. Maybe there is a balance between touch/sensitivity versus motive skills between the groups that renders no 'clumsiness disadvantage' one way or the other.
(These are my Aspie observations. I checked the script with my NT wife, to whom I have reflected on many anecdotes over the years that illustrate these matters, and she agrees that these are reasonable observations to make from my perspective.)
The point of my post was to compare and contrast differences that are unnecessarily referred to, here, as 'deficiencies', 'problems' and 'symptoms'. Why does one group of people feel it is OK to label a set of behaviours different to their own as having 'symptoms' and 'problems'? And why do they react personally to it when they are met with similar language over their own behaviour?CMB, you sound as if you really have a chip on your shoulder. Your repeated attempts at making what is considered "normal" seem bad and deficient is a bit pathetic to be honest. It sounds like you have a lot of issues. You can stop your ranting now.
From my experience with people that I know have aspergers, you sound nothing like them.