Arab countries

[rootX]

If I go to some Arab country like Iran or Saudi Arab, will they put me in jail for doing anything that is not allowed in their religion (not necessarily against)?

I read in news some people got prosecuted for religious based crimes.

Thanks

 

[NeoDevin]

It's possible in some of them, be careful.

 

Iran is not an Arab country.

But, yeah, certain of them have fairly regressive laws about certain things. In Saudi Arabia, for example, it's illegal for you bring a Bible or other non-Islamic religious books into the country (also, no porno). That said, I have the feeling that they're willing to give naive Westerners a bit of a pass on this kind of thing, provided that it was a genuine misunderstanding, and you rush to act conciliatory about it (and maybe pay a bribe). Also, they tend to have exceptions to laws about drinking for foreigners inside the resort hotels, so as long as you stay in the designated areas, it's fine.

 

[lisab]

I have a friend who has spent time in Jordan. He said it was great, a lot more tolerant than most.

 

[Kurdt]

I can't remember where my friend went, or even if it was an Arab country but he was forced to wear long sleeves and trousers because he had tattoos of naked women on his arms and legs. I don't know why I share that. :tongue:

I would certainly do a lot of research before going anywhere. Most countries now have tourist websites with all the relevant info. If you're still unsure see if there is anyone you can contact that can help answer your questions.

 

[rootX]

oo no, I am not going there.
Happy, while I am away from those countries!

I was just thinking about the countries where I want to work in future (as an Engineer); Japan's at the top! :D - though their society is also not that good: issues like racism, cost of living .. (I haven't done much research, so not sure about this)

Thanks.

 

depends on which arab country you're referring to, for example Saudi Arabia has strict laws regarding a lot of things...on the other hand, Egypt is a very tolerant country you can probably do whatever you do in your country except for running around naked. Drinking is not forbidden, there's no racism, there's no sexual preference except in the south...Egypt is very tolerant and that's why its a major tourism country.

 

[mgb_phys]

Egypt is very tolerant and that's why its a major tourism country.

Or the other way round - Egypt needs tourism and that's why it's tolerant.
The more oil-rich the other states, and the less they need visitors, the less tolerant they have to be.

 

Egypt and Egyptians has always been known for tolerance friendliness and hospitality...

 

an Arabs point of view:
depending on the nation, you will find different levels of tolerance. in Saudi Arabia, for instance everyone (non Muslims and Muslims) are forced to live by Islamic law, which is actually not part of Islam since in sharia law religious minorities have the right to freely practice their religious beliefs and live according to their laws IF those laws do not harm society or are against other peoples rights.
racism is non-existent in most Arab countries such as jordan, Syria, most of Egypt, Lebanon, UAE, and Algeria. others like Lebanon, Saudi and Iraq have more tribal or ethnic divides.

Or the other way round - Egypt needs tourism and that's why it's tolerant.
The more oil-rich the other states, and the less they need visitors, the less tolerant they have to be.

to a certain point... since Saudi Arabia officially discriminates against non-Saudi nationals.
and tolerance is not tied to oil, it is tied to social sensibilities. Saudi Arabia has an ultra-conservative society. others such as Syria and the UAE are more liberal.

so to answer the main question:

If I go to some Arab country like Iran or Saudi Arab, will they put me in jail for doing anything that is not allowed in their religion (not necessarily against)?

in most Arab Muslim countries: no. you are not a Muslim so therefore you do not have to obey most Islamic laws, but for the sake of decency try and obey social ones.

 

[mgb_phys]

Although you might want to avoid UAE http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

 

[Moridin]

In Iran, it is against the law to be an agnostic or atheist.

 

Although you might want to avoid UAE http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

This is sh*t publicity and so stupid, UAE is probably the best arab country to go to after Egypt.

 

[jaap de vries]

Egypt and Egyptians has always been known for tolerance friendliness and hospitality...

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech. Their main TV host just called for a boycott on Dutch products because one person in the Netherlands made a movie relating Islam with Terrorism. Also a Dutch children's movie was refused for showing at a festival held in Egypt. A not so smart move from a country that relies heavily on European Tourism. Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

The NDP has governed since 1978, or do you believe that running four consecutive times for 6 year term UNOPPOSED is democracy.

Torturing of prisoners is also not uncommon practice by the SSIS [1-3], in fact Egypt is one of the most popular countries for US' special rendition program.

Sorry to come down on you a little hard but I have this discussion more often with people from Egypt and they seem to have a skew view on their "Great Nation" with its dictator Mubarak.

Since you are on a western site hear you might hear something else for a change.


[1] http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27926.htm
[2] http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/egypt.html
[3] http://terrorism.about.com/od/humanrights/a/EgyptTorture.htm

 

[vanesch]

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.
First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech.

I don't think one was talking here about the political system. I've been several times to Egypt and I have to agree with Ahmed that the people in the street are extremely friendly and helpful, in fact much more so than in many touristic places in Europe where you really have the feeling that you are just a money pump.

I have to say that I don't think I will go again to Egypt, but for a totally different reason: each time, I was one or two months sick with a serious GI-trackt deregulation when I got back. I thought it would improve upon repeated visits, but it didn't: each time I got ill. There must be some virusses or bacteria over there that my body doesn't handle...

 

[jaap de vries]

I don't think one was talking here about the political system. I've been several times to Egypt and I have to agree with Ahmed that the people in the street are extremely friendly and helpful, in fact much more so than in many touristic places in Europe where you really have the feeling that you are just a money pump.

I have to say that I don't think I will go again to Egypt, but for a totally different reason: each time, I was one or two months sick with a serious GI-trackt deregulation when I got back. I thought it would improve upon repeated visits, but it didn't: each time I got ill. There must be some virusses or bacteria over there that my body doesn't handle...

Yes but the quote I countered was Egypt and Egyptians. Egypt as a country is not well known for its tolerance, even do Egyptians might be very friendly.

I agree about Europe's largest tourist traps are atrocious, try to find the hidden places you will like it better. I am the first to amid that after living in the US for a while, I find the people in Europe (read Netherlands) are not always that friendly.

 

04.29.08 21:35
Moridin
In Iran, it is against the law to be an agnostic or atheist.

source

Originally Posted by mgb_phys
Although you might want to avoid UAE http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

This is sh*t publicity and so stupid, UAE is probably the best arab country to go to after Egypt.

please try and refrain from using swearwords. swearing in such discussions is not very friendly. and why would i want to go to Egypt and not go to the UAE?
i do think that the UAE is a pretty free and tolerant country, although some laws need to be revised.

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.

yes, the Netherlands, notorious for lax drug laws. and a red light district that is envied by other nations. how tolerant.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech.

i agree.

Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech.

contradictory statements. mubaraks regime wants to please a popular movement? and the just started a deal with Israel to pump natural gas to Israel for 20 years?

 

[vanesch]

I find the people in Europe (read Netherlands) are not always that friendly.

Being Belgian, I can't but agree with you :rofl: :rofl:

 

[jaap de vries]

source


contradictory statements. mubaraks regime wants to please a popular movement? and the just started a deal with Israel to pump natural gas to Israel for 20 years?

Pleasing a popular movement if you want to call radical islamist that does not contradict my statement at all. You see this in most dictatorial regimes where protests against the government is illegal. Staged demonstrations and US/Dutch/Danish "flag burnings' is a nice way to distract a lot of people from the oppression by their own government.

There are still people in the West that think that these kind of protests are spontaneous.

Yes we have a tolerant (soft) drug policy in the Netherlands. But we use far less of it than for instance France. Also legalized prostitution allows for better protection for the women although it is a industry that needs to be controlled better I agree. It does however not compare to female mutilation and torture.

 

[jaap de vries]

Being Belgian, I can't but agree with you :rofl: :rofl:

Your from Belgium? You must be from Walonie since many Flemish would not be against combining Holland and Flemingen(?).
It would sure do your economy a lot of good!
I do think most people from Belgium are friendlier than people in Holland because we have the tendency to take ourselves a little bit to serious.

 

[mgb_phys]

Staged demonstrations and US/Dutch/Danish "flag burnings' is a nice way to distract a lot of people from the oppression by their own government.

I always wondered where they get the flags:
"Heh Fatima, I just saw on CNN that the Dutch have published a cartoon I disagree with - get the Dutch flag out of the cupboard and pass me the gas can"
"Is the Dutch one the one with vertical stripes? Just a minute while I look it up in my I-spy book of flags"

Or does the Saudi branch of Walmart do a lot of business selling inflammable US flags?
They would have to be good quality cotten flags to burn like that, nylon / polyester would just melt before the camera crews had got it in focus.

In a similair vein, it turns out the "free tibet" flags featuring in the Olympic torch protests are made in, you guessed it, china http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm

 

[vanesch]

Your from Belgium? You must be from Walonie since many Flemish would not be against combining Holland and Flemingen(?).

Awel, nee, zie, ik ben een Vlaming :tongue2:

I was just making an allusion of the rivalry that sometimes exists between Belgians and Dutch (not quite the same, but must be a little bit comparable to the attitude between French and English).

I do think most people from Belgium are friendlier than people in Holland because we have the tendency to take ourselves a little bit to serious.

Eh. Yes! The Dutch are more efficient (especially in business). But a bit too serious

 

[mgb_phys]

I was just making an allusion of the rivalry that sometimes exists between Belgians and Dutch (not quite the same,

At least that would be a fairly laid-back civillised kind of holy war - settled over some beers, a joint and fries with mayonaise!

 

[Gokul43201]

How can you be serious if the only thing you do besides drinking beer is brewing it? And we all know that this is all anyone ever does in Belgium (assuming it even exists in the first place).

On the other hand, the relative absence of beer in the ME is definitely what makes it such a serious place.

PS: :tongue2:

 

[jaap de vries]

Don't forget the http://www.vki.ac.be/" [Broken]

This place is actually pretty impressive given that I work in a turbo machinery lab myself

 

jaap de vries, i never referred to Egypt's political system so i don't know where u got the idea from. Sadly, you have made some accusations that are not completely true or relevant. I will try to answer all of the things you claimed.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech

I know Egypt is not a complete democracy but i think this will change over the next decade or so. However, not being a democracy doesn't mean that we are less tolerant than any.

Their main TV host just called for a boycott on Dutch products because one person in the Netherlands made a movie relating Islam with Terrorism. Also a Dutch children's movie was refused for showing at a festival held in Egypt.

Try to be a little more considering in your speech. We are talking about masses of people who were seriously offended by that movie. I believe this is a very limited and minimal reaction to that movie. The West might not appreciate how Muslims feel and care for their religion.

A not so smart move from a country that relies heavily on European Tourism

You obviously don't know about Egyptians. If it was the last source of income we have, we would have still done it.

Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

It was a measure that reveals a small part of the public refusal that this movie aroused.

Torturing of prisoners is also not uncommon practice by the SSIS [1-3], in fact Egypt is one of the most popular countries for US' special rendition program.

Please let's not go there because we both know the ugly truth in the world today. The US is probably the last country in the world to talk about human rights.

Sorry to come down on you a little hard but I have this discussion more often with people from Egypt and they seem to have a skew view on their "Great Nation" with its dictator Mubarak.

For a second their i thought that was sarcasm but since I don't want to go any deeper in this discussion, i will think of it differently. Mubarak has done a lot to Egypt. We remained without war and fear for a long time. We regained all of our lands peacefully. And finally we are now trying to pull ourselves back together after long and nasty years of corruption and theft that stalled and held us back over the years. You see after so many years, the government is finally paying attention to research, science and technology. Moreover, the economy is recovering and so as health,education and culture.

I hope i wasn't too long for anyone to read but i had to answer carefully all that has been said. Last of all, I am not offended or anything so please feel free to ask me what you like but let's stick to the subject.

 

[jaap de vries]

I know Egypt is not a complete democracy but i think this will change over the next decade or so. However, not being a democracy doesn't mean that we are less tolerant than any.

Actually that is exactly what a dictatorship means! You can NOT be a successful dictatorship without eliminating opposition (or not TOLERATE) opposition.

Try to be a little more considering in your speech. We are talking about masses of people who were seriously offended by that movie. I believe this is a very limited and minimal reaction to that movie. The West might not appreciate how Muslims feel and care for their religion.

The Idea that you boycott a Country because of the opinion of one person and you agree with this clearly means that you don't understand what freedom of speech means. We can't all boycott the US for what O'reilly says. I came to the sad understanding that even educated people in the middle east have a fundamental different opinion about freedom of speech/religion etc.

(the movie was just a compilation of terrorist acts...BY MOLIMS! So I don't see why the Islamic world is so offended by that.)

You obviously don't know about Egyptians. If it was the last source of income we have, we would have still done it.

Again it doesn't make sense since our prime minister clearly denounced the movie and the whole Dutch government distanced themselves from it. Clearly people in Egypt do not understand that we have freedom of speech. However no Dutch TV channel or internet site felt like showing this movie. (Details that never seem to be mentioned because they get in the way of organized flag burning sessions)

Please let's not go there because we both know the ugly truth in the world today. The US is probably the last country in the world to talk about human rights.

Maybe so but I am not from the US. and I hope you are not seriously comparing the human rights record of the Netherlands with that of Egypt, or any other ME dictatorship for that matter.

Mubarak has done a lot to Egypt. We remained without war and fear for a long time. We regained all of our lands peacefully. And finally we are now trying to pull ourselves back together after long and nasty years of corruption and theft that stalled and held us back over the years.

Any dictatorship has their supporters, I admit their is progress being made (slowly) but that does not create an image of Egypt being so overly tolerant.

Here is the most important part do.
and what I am about to say go's for any dictatorship.

Their is NO way for me to know that what you say is what you think or believe.

This is the fundamental difference between a dictatorship and a true free society. Their is no way to check for us, especially with respect to the ME what people feel, how many are radicalized etc. It is impossible to get unbiased media coverage from any source.

 

my friend, let's imagine that the European union kicked the Netherlands out and no support is received from it. Then let's imagine that the English declared war on you and after a couple of decades of war with the Brits, the Netherlands finally made peace. However, its resources has been exhausted and it has no economy, no true army, the society is divided and broken and many many good people died or fled from the country. Can you imagine how long it would take to rebuild such country to the current Netherlands? That is probably why I can't compare Egypt's human rights record to the Netherlands'.

 

I think your confused my friend I am from the Netherlands and I think we have a different understanding about tolerance.

First Egypt is NOT a democracy neither does it have free speech. Their main TV host just called for a boycott on Dutch products because one person in the Netherlands made a movie relating Islam with Terrorism. Also a Dutch children's movie was refused for showing at a festival held in Egypt. A not so smart move from a country that relies heavily on European Tourism. Or was this just a measure to please the Islamic radical for a short moment?

The NDP has governed since 1978, or do you believe that running four consecutive times for 6 year term UNOPPOSED is democracy.

Torturing of prisoners is also not uncommon practice by the SSIS [1-3], in fact Egypt is one of the most popular countries for US' special rendition program.

Sorry to come down on you a little hard but I have this discussion more often with people from Egypt and they seem to have a skew view on their "Great Nation" with its dictator Mubarak.

Since you are on a western site hear you might hear something else for a change.

it's important to rationally separate international Media and Government actions from the way that life is lived on the ground by people. when someone who actually lives in these countries answers questions about what it's like for a foreigner to travel there, we should ask more questions to get at the truth, if that's what is truly sought. if there are debates about it, there must be a misconception somewhere, as in the case of the answers to "If I go to some Arab country like Iran or Saudi Arab, will they put me in jail for doing anything that is not allowed in their religion (not necessarily against)?" can the question be answered objectively? yes. other extraneous details only reflect on other cultural anxieties.

for example: it's no more my fault that paris hilton made a sex tape 9 years ago than it is that george bush failed to send aid to hurricane victims in louisiana 3 years ago. nor is it untrue that in my neighborhood you might be treated like royalty because you're from denmark, but 300 miles south of here you'd probably have a hard time being treated with even a small amount of respect because a lot of those people don't like any foreigners whatsoever. countries are not composed of machines and pins stuck in a map. they are full of actual people and regional cultures based on universally understandable things like climate, cuisine, history, religion, and nature.

what my government, newscasters, talk show hosts, athletes, musicians, and movie makers do has nothing to do with me or almost anyone I've ever MET, let alone know. i could tell you that something were true in my country or region and it would be true, even if it sounded contrary to what you've learned through the world of publicized international incidents...aka government/media soap operas.

i just want to point that out. we sit around and talk about what a repressed people we have there in the middle east now that we've put the magnifying glass up to them because of a war. that's not really fair. no one there knew they were going to be required to instantly throw the status quo out and embrace something new and unknown. now here they are, with their different ways of life and education systems, religions, and governmental traditions.

it's ALL different and too many of us want it to be instantly the same and totally symbiotic with the bigger animal, the WEST. that's not going to happen overnight!

i would think that we shouldn't rush to throw our ways of life down upon them anyway...don't use the U.S. as the model, for example, as if the war gives us some noble "purpose" or "cultural validation". we have more people in prison than any other nation in the world. there are a lot of internal problems here and they're getting worse all the time, and they're the historically worst kind of problems for any nation that wants to stay intact and relatively free. classic problems like corruption and greed at the highest levels of government.




"the internal combustion engine is dead!"

 

[Phrak]

"for example: it's no more my fault that paris hilton made a sex tape 9 years ago than it is that george bush failed to send aid to hurricane victims in louisiana 3 years ago."

argg. get your facts straight

 

[jaap de vries]

"for example: it's no more my fault that paris hilton made a sex tape 9 years ago than it is that george bush failed to send aid to hurricane victims in louisiana 3 years ago."

Actually in a democracy you are responsible for your own government however collectively, so you only have a small amount of power.

 

[jaap de vries]

my friend, let's imagine that the European union kicked the Netherlands out and no support is received from it. Then let's imagine that the English declared war on you and after a couple of decades of war with the Brits, the Netherlands finally made peace. However, its resources has been exhausted and it has no economy, no true army, the society is divided and broken and many many good people died or fled from the country. Can you imagine how long it would take to rebuild such country to the current Netherlands? That is probably why I can't compare Egypt's human rights record to the Netherlands'.

Just throw in the France, Germans, Spanish, Portuguese and you just described about 800 years of our history.

I am aware of the history and the unfair hands of cards that have been dealt throughout history. However, and I'll repeat it again. Egypt as a country is not known for its tolerance. This does not mean that Egyptians aren't friendly or hospitable.

 

[vanesch]

How can you be serious if the only thing you do besides drinking beer is brewing it? And we all know that this is all anyone ever does in Belgium (assuming it even exists in the first place).

:rofl::rofl: You got me !

 

well said flowerthrower. one thing i have to say is we do have freedom to talk just no freedom of speech. everyone criticizes the institute they work in and how it should be done, and everyone discusses politics. note that anyone in the ME has access to: al-jazeera (indipendent, qatar) alarabiya (saudi) alhurra (gorge bush) al-fayhaa ( iraqi resistance) russia today, CNN, ABC, CNBC, al-manar (hezbullah) palestine tv (fatah), al-quds TV (hamas) and BBC to name but a few. so we get a pretty wide representation of international views.
oh, and ahmedezz, what is your occupation? does it begin with an m (in arabic) and end with a t? and have a kh sound in the middle? i am sure you know what i mean.

 

[jaap de vries]

oh, and ahmedezz, what is your occupation? does it begin with an m (in arabic) and end with a t? and have a kh sound in the middle? i am sure you know what i mean.

Yeah Ahmed any change you are a MKHT?