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Archery question

  1. Mar 26, 2017 #1
    Yesterday I tried archery inside a mall for the first time. Our arrows were lightweight. We were discussing with my companions how arrows can kill people in the ancient warfare or battle when they look so light and can't penetrate further from the skin or flesh. Do they use heavier bow and arrows in real war and can those really kill people? Are these also being sold in sporting shop?
     
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  3. Mar 26, 2017 #2

    phinds

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    Your use of the term "lightweight" is totally vague. Are you experienced with regular arrows? What was the pull force on the bows you were using? Your whole question is too vague to be answered unless we happen to have a member who is familiar with those arrows and regular arrows AND knows what kind of bow you are talking about.
     
  4. Mar 26, 2017 #3

    berkeman

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    Lethal? Not so much...

    http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6745/1943/1600/DSCN3167.0.jpg
    DSCN3167.0.jpg

    Lethal, yes...

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2e/ed/49/2eed49095a29655e27523ca52fdd408f.jpg
    2eed49095a29655e27523ca52fdd408f.jpg
     
  5. Mar 26, 2017 #4

    Vanadium 50

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    And the arrow. The ones with a rubber cup on the business end are not as deadly as the ones all sharp and pointy.
     
  6. Mar 26, 2017 #5

    Mark44

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    At the Battle of Agincourt (25 Oct, 1415), the English under Henry V won the battle over the numerically superior French forces, primarily due to the efforts of the English longbowmen. The arrows fired by the English archers had enough force to penetrate armor.

    It is said (but not backed up by historical evidence) that the "V" sign for victory, with two fingers raised, originated at that battle. As the story goes, English and Welsh archers captured by the French had their index and middle fingers cut off, making it impossible for them to use their longbows. The uncaptured and victorious English raised their hands, showing those fingers, as a sign of defiance.

    There's a very long history of people using bows and arrows, both for hunting and in war, going back at least two thousand years. The Plains Indians of the US were master bowmen, and were able to ride their horses at full gallop firing arrows at buffalo or at other tribes they were at war with, or at homesteaders or US Cavalry troops.
     
  7. Mar 26, 2017 #6

    Fervent Freyja

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    The arrow weight isn't as important as drawing weight of the bow. Lighter arrows can travel faster, but heavier arrows penetrate more deeply. Combining a lighter arrow/bolt with a bow that requires more strength to draw is going to be more deadly than a heavy arrow with a bow that doesn't require as much strength to cock, especially if you add a head that's designed for maximum damage once inside your target.

    You didn't shoot a real effective bow, if you are questioning if they can really kill people! I have a crossbow, but cannot draw it myself (I think 400, so requires 200 pound pull with a cocker), and still wince when I hit a target. My bolts are aluminum and pretty light. You don't want to be in front of one. These things would not only penetrate you, but are powerful enough to pick up up off the ground and throw you backwards! My husband can kill anything with a crossbow, easily. I usually miss. I prefer using his AR-15 when I go hunting with him, but bow season usually opens before rifle season. Bullets deliver more damage than arrows. Back a long time ago when they used bows in war you had a higher chance of surviving than vs struck by a bullet. Lethalness probably depends how accurate the shooter is and how much strength they can put behind it than weight of the arrow.

    Yes, you can buy them in any sporting shop.
     
  8. Mar 27, 2017 #7
    These are what you can find in typical archery centers inside malls (they are ones I tried and it's my first time). How deadly are these? In our estimation, this can hardly reach 1 inch beyond the flesh (of say cows). In warfare arrows.. how far they can reach inside the flesh?

    bows_zpsukjimykj.jpg

    arrows_zps74gldysh.jpg
     
  9. Mar 27, 2017 #8

    russ_watters

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    Suffice to say, for safety reasons and because they don't expect random people at a mall to be very strong, the "draw weight" (Google that...) of those bows will be a small fraction of what a hunting or war bow draws...and the arrows are lighter, with duller points.

    An arrow/bow that can pierce a steel plate would go all the way through an unarmored person.
     
  10. Mar 27, 2017 #9

    Bandersnatch

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    Look at the numbers by these bows - that's the draw weight. It's the weight equivalent that your arm has to support at full draw (between 28 and 32 inches, depending on construction of the bow).
    I can only barely make out the first two, which are in the 20s-30s pound range. Such poundages are given to archery first-timers, so that they can start learning the technique.
    It's likely the ones further on the left are heavier. You wouldn't see much of a difference visually. It's just a matter of slightly thicker or broader limbs.

    As you go up with draw weight, you need more and more muscle to use it, and also increasingly heavier arrows (for one, they're stiffer, so won't get damaged upon release).

    IIRC, the legal requirement for bow hunting (deer) in USA is 45 pounds. Anything less is considered not powerful enough to cause incapacitating wounds. As a rule of thumb, if it can kill a deer, it can kill a human. For wartime use you'd likely want no less than 60.

    English longbows recovered from the Mary Rose wreckage are estimated to have been between 100 and 180 pounds draw weight, but that's a bit on the extreme end of the scale.

    Ask around what's the heaviest bow they've got, and give it a try to get a feel for the difference a few extra pounds can make.
     
  11. Mar 27, 2017 #10
    The one on the left most is written 22:

    bow%20weight_zpsf4ogkujt.jpg


    What is the legal maximum draw weight of bows sold in sporting good shops? Maybe for tactical bow&arrow used by say the Delta Force, it needs license? Because bows&arrows can be considered lethal or deadly weapon so there should be licenses for more draw weight, no?

    By the way, what is the draw weight of the bow & arrow used by Katniss Everdeen? It's so deadly accurate.

     
  12. Mar 27, 2017 #11

    Bandersnatch

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    There isn't a maximum, nor do you need a licence (at least not in the USA, UK or Poland, I've no idea about the rest of the world). You may need years of what amounts to regular weight training, though.
     
  13. Mar 27, 2017 #12

    phinds

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    It's so accurate because it's a movie. Draw weight has nothing to do with it.
     
  14. Mar 27, 2017 #13
    You mean a guy can carry a 50 draw weight bow and arrow walking in the street in the heart of New York. Can't he be considered armed and dangerous?
     
  15. Mar 27, 2017 #14

    Bandersnatch

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    As far as I'm aware, you only need a licence if you're hunting. In most countries bows are considered sports equipment (in contrast, crossbows are usually deemed weapons).
    Always check with your local regulations, though.
     
  16. Mar 27, 2017 #15
    Many countries don't have permit to carry firearms.. so let's say you are in the middle of the jungle. Bow & arrow will be a good defensive weapon.
    What draw weight minimum do you need to stop a tiger or lion by one shot that can reach it's brain?

    And if your target is 3 meters away versus 10 meters away. Does classical physics says that force of the arrow would be greater at shorter or longer distance? logic says longer distance between the arrows need to build momentum while it travels in airs, yes? Or closer is more deadly?
     
  17. Mar 27, 2017 #16

    phinds

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    So you think that the arrow gains speed after it completely leaves the bow? What force is it that causes that?
     
  18. Mar 27, 2017 #17
    not gain speed.. but gain force.. because the travelling arrows increase the momentum and hence the force of impact, right?
     
  19. Mar 27, 2017 #18

    phinds

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    HOW does it gain momentum? What is the definition of momentum? Do you understand that the instant it leaves contact with the bowstring, there is no force acting on it (other than gravity, of course, and a small amount of air resistance)? How can the momentum increase if there is no force acting on it?
     
  20. Mar 27, 2017 #19
    You have a point if the arrow is shot horizontal.. but if it's shot from above to below.. there is increase of momentum due to acceleration due to gravity.
     
  21. Mar 27, 2017 #20

    phinds

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    A trivial amount if the arrow has any force from the bow.
     
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