Are all SSDs Unreliable?

  1. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    I have a Crucial M4 SSD that is 2.5 years old and still in warranty. The drive has a nasty habit: If it loses power, it disappears from my laptop. Crucial has a procedure for bringing it back to life prominently displayed on its support site:

    1. Remove the drive from my laptop
    2. Connecting it to the power of my desktop for 20 minutes.
    3. Remove power and wait 30 seconds.
    4. Repeat step 2.
    http://forum.crucial.com/t5/Solid-S...quot-disappear-quot-from-my-system/ta-p/65215

    The procedure works. Unfortunately, the result is often a corrupted windows installation. Crucial has issued bios fixes attempting to mitigate the issue, but if anything it appears to be getting worse: it has happened 3 times in the past 4 months or so and even at that, the drive has only been in my system for half the time!

    If you google "ssd disappear", the majority of the hits you get are about this issue on the M4.

    Crucial won't replace it because they say it is normal(!?):
    Digging further, though, they may not be wrong, but that is not an easy question to answer: Googling "kingston ssd disappear", aside from links where people say they are going to replace their disappeared Crucial M4 with a new Kingston, there are some that describe the same issue happening with Kingston:
    http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/storage/48038-ssd-loses-connection-randomly-what-do.html
    This involved a "Sandforce" controller and the forums suggest it was a bios bug that was fixed, but nevertheless took down the company:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SandForce

    But the M4 doesn't use the SandForce controller.

    Worse, this paper implies that Crucial may be correct:
    http://www.extremetech.com/computin...ing-drive-are-power-outages-killing-your-ssds

    I quote/link the article about the white paper instead of the paper itself because it is a bit over my head. I really don't know what to do here. I have a $400 SSD that I'd rather not have to throw in the trash, but I also would rather not waste a day re-installing windows every time a minor issue causes it to disappear and become corrupted.

    Anyone have experience with this issue? Comments? Recommendations?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  2. jcsd
  3. Chronos

    Chronos 10,132
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    Gold Member

    I'm at a disadvantage. I have a 256 Samsung SSD [~$200] and have not experienced such an issue. It has data migration software that can be used to clone the OS from a hard drive, which is considerably less aggravating than a fresh install.
     
  4. Ben Niehoff

    Ben Niehoff 1,717
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    I had this problem in a drive, but the solution is not nearly so complicated. What I did was:

    1. Power on laptop and press whatever key to enter the BIOS screen.

    2. Let it sit in BIOS, plugged in, for about 10 minutes. (This way, the drive is getting power, but is not in use).

    At this point, either the drive shows up in BIOS (yay!), or it will after rebooting.

    It turns out, however, that my drive was having other problems. It would die while my laptop was in sleep mode, even if my laptop was plugged in. I forget the exact details, but since I was using Linux, I would see errors in dmesg about the drive.

    I asked Corsair to RMA the drive, and they did so quickly and painlessly. I have not noticed any problems since*. So you may just have a bad drive; I'd contact Crucial while you're still in warranty.

    * However, I received the RMA around the same time I got my Surface Pro 2, so I haven't used that laptop as much since then either. In fact, since it has been sitting with no power for a few months now, I can go turn it on later and let you know if there is any issue with the drive booting up.


    Some further suggestions: Do you have any regular method of data backup? I built myself a NAS server in mirror mode and I regularly copy things there, so generally speaking I am not concerned if the drive on my laptop fails, or if its OS gets corrupted, except for the temporary inconvenience.

    For even more piece-of-mind, you can use Clonezilla to make a clone of your OS drive. I can tell you from experience that it works beautifully. While my SSD was being RMA'd, I cloned the OS to my old HDD and continued to use the laptop, and then cloned it back to the new SSD. You should use Gparted to shrink your partitions slightly (it can shrink Windows partitions safely, including moving "immovable" files), because Clonezilla cannot clone a drive to a *smaller* drive, and not all 250 GB drives contain exactly the same number of bytes.

    Edit to correct: My SSD is a Corsair, not Crucial. I was very impressed with Corsair's handling of the issue.
     
  5. russ_watters

    Staff: Mentor

    Have you ever had to shut down your computer by holding-down the power button due to a lock-up or failed shutdown?
    Yeah, if I start using the SSD again, I'm going to do something like that.
     
  6. AlephZero

    AlephZero 7,298
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    It's interesting the way usage of SSDs has changed over time. Back in the early days of SSDs on supercomputers, nobody would have even thought about using them for "permanent" file storage. They were strictly for fast access to scratch files, and/or as another level of memory paging where the application could pre-fetch the data it knew would be needed next, rather than letting a OS's virtual memory logic keep trying to play catch-up with the CPU.

    I don't have any experience either way with modern "consumer level" SSDs though. But I suspect they more "my computer boots faster than yours" bragging rights for many users, rather than something actually useful - though the reduced power consumption and mechanical reliability are obviously real benefits if you need them.
     
  7. Ben Niehoff

    Ben Niehoff 1,717
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    Mechanical reliability is a big deal to me. I lost an HDD once because I was using my laptop on an airplane. Once I realized what was happening, I shut it down and I was able to get most things off of it later before the drive became unusable. Luckily this happened on the way home; my trip would have been a disaster if it had happened on the way out.

    This is actually the main reason I bought my SSD.
     
  8. Chronos

    Chronos 10,132
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    Yes, I have had to hard boot many times, Russ. The Samsung has so far handled it with ease. Of course, that could change tomorrow.
     
  9. I have a comment (useless, but I still want to comment). It's weird. When I go to Amazon I see many bad reviews for SSD Drives while Hard Disk which are cheaper have way less negative reviews. Hard disks failing usually warn and can have their data recovered, but according to the reviews SSDs appear to terminally fail in an instant without warnings. They also appear to have so many tricks on how to make them work. (I think things should just work with no tricks whatsoever like unplugging power, waiting minutes, and stuff).

    SSD are claimed to be wonders of technology in the media industry, but why do they have so many people saying they die quickly? Why do the user has to unplug powers, wait some time, re install operating systems, do magic tricks, and many other stuff with this technology? According to the reviews they too appear to be lasting less than hard disks in the long run. That's what has kept me from getting one. It really scares me to see so many people saying they die in a few months in those reviews plus the fact that they have to do acrobatics and magic tricks with their computers to make them work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2014
  10. Chronos

    Chronos 10,132
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    Gold Member

    The 'magic' of an SSD is its instant on ability. It is also a critical weakness when it fails. It is not difficult to restore if you know what to do. The only 'trick' is to boot off a back up HDD with an uncorrupted OS. You can then clone the OS off the HDD to the SSD with proper software.
     
  11. rcgldr

    rcgldr 7,577
    Homework Helper

    Part of the issue is the way SSD's try to distribute writes to the SS memory somewhat evenly, so they utilize a mapping scheme to map "logical" sectors into "physical" sectors, and that map needs to be stored somewhere, usually also in the SS memory. If there's a power loss during a map update operation, it can lose a lot of data. I would assume some sort of self archiving, like having dual maps and not re-using sectors removed from the previous map until the current map update was completed. I don't know how sophisitcated the mapping schemes in current SSD's are.

    Maybe someday the number of writes for the "lifespan" of a SS memory will increase so that a mapping scheme is no longer needed (or maybe some SSD's are already there?).
     
  12. SixNein

    SixNein 224
    Gold Member

    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  13. According to what I've read on NAND technology it is better to buy SLC NAND technology SSDs. Yet it appears most SSDs at affordable prices use 3-bit MLC (TLC) and that is what I suspect is the culprit in people's problems with them.

    I read this piece of a white paper to conclude that: https://www.samsung.com/global/busi...isite/SSD/global/html/about/whitepaper03.html

    Even when it is a paper from SSD manufacturers itself, they themselves put lots of SSDs with 3-bit MLC technology on the market. I applaud their honesty on this subject. My interpretation of their honesty:
    I suppose I will save a lot of money and then buy a good one in one shot.
     
  14. Vanadium 50

    Vanadium 50 18,041
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    Russ, I have had four SSDs.

    #1 was a Kingston 128. It failed. Kingston didn't believe me at first, but I was able to demonstrate that it was the drive by writing and rereading a block and showing the readback failed. They RMA'ed it and sent back a 120 - after several weeks. I strongly suspect that the drive was the same model, but the firmware was altered to use 8 GB as spares. The 120 works OK, but I am not going to buy another Kingston SSD.

    I have a Crucial C300 in my desktop. Works fine - been using it for years.

    The fourth drive is in my laptop. It's a Samsung 128 and it also works fine.
     
  15. I have a Kingston 120G that I bought for work about 2 years ago and it worked flawlessly up to the day...well that it didn't. no warning, just poof. after much necromancy I managed to revive it for seconds at a time but never long enough to copy even a single folder off of it. Although it does have a 3 year warranty I am in kind of a hard spot because it has years worth of sensitive company info. I had an image dated the day before so no work was lost but I cant return the drive to Kingston for a replacement due to the information on it. So I am in the market for a new drive, I did enjoy the speed but I am not sure I want to take another chance with the SSDs.
     
  16. Something that wasn't mentioned are the conditions under which the SSD is being used. ie; Virtual Memory, Write Caching, AHCI vs IDE and Prefetch/SuperFetch settings.

    I've been using three different SSD's for quite some time now and have installed quite a few in others computers. So far I have personally yet to experience or hear of any problems from them. Then again, I do get a bit meticulous with the settings that pertain the SSDs.
     
  17. Vanadium 50

    Vanadium 50 18,041
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    I just upgraded to a Samsung 840 EVO (how could I resist a name like that?). Swapped it, moving everything, in an evening.
     
  18. Greg Bernhardt

    Staff: Admin

    PF has been using the Intel X25-E Extreme SSD for the database for a few years now.
     
  19. Vanadium 50

    Vanadium 50 18,041
    Staff Emeritus
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    PF's not running on the EVO? :devil:

    Consumer drives today are pretty much where enterprise drives were when you probably bought those drives. It's remarkable how far they have come, and how they have engineered out many of the performance limitations.
     
  20. jhae2.718

    jhae2.718 1,160
    Gold Member

    I've had good results with Intel and Samsung drives. I've been running an Intel 520 series (or something like that) in my big ThinkPad and a Samsung Evo 840 in my tablet ThinkPad.
     
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