Are business degree profitable?

[twofish-quant]

One lesson in sales is that when someone tells you something they want something from you. It's always a good idea to figure out what that thing is. It's also good to think about hidden and subtle messages.

The thing that I don't like about the financial-academic complex is that it teaches people to be passive. You get this degree and get this ticket stamped, and then you are made. Except life just doesn't work that way. It also teaches people not to ask questions, which I find annoying because I like asking question (although I've figured out that I don't have ask questions out loud if it will get me in trouble).

Two questions that people ought to always be asking are "so why are you in charge here?" and "so what's in this for me?" (The answer to #1 is often, I pay you money, and if you don't do what I say, you will starve to death.)

Part of the problem I have with the academic-financial-industry complex is that it encourages people not to ask those questions, which is a bit of a shame.

 

[fasterthanjoao]

From this it is clear that those on business degrees achieved generally lower grades than their STEM, languages, economics and history counterparts.

I don't really see how this is relevant. Not everything is about grades - a business degree is definitely less technically demanding, but I know plenty *plenty* of scientists that bomb every time they have to present something, and that are just awful at organising things. Don't be such an intellectual snob

So for the majority of jobs that a university graduate will apply for, it doesn't matter what they studied, just that they were successful at it.

No, you're making assumptions - I'm not necessarily saying you're incorrect, just that you can't make that judgement. Just because there are positions (and there are many) that welcome applications from any degrees, doesn't mean they give the same weight to each. The important thing is about how you sell yourself and the skills that you have learned. The general skills are important - like twofish says with social skills, where technical graduates can boast problem solving skills, business type graduates can boast a huge focus of interpersonal skills and management. It's possible you can be a physics graduate with great presentation and selling skills, but it's more likely to be that guy if you've gone through a business degree.

One of these filters is that candidates must have achieved a certain amount of those UCAS points in their high school exams - 300 is the typical number; a fairly modest amount

Really? I've lived in the UK my entire life and (obviously) had all of my work and education experience here - I've never heard of using UCAS points to measure university graduates. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong I'm just surprised that I've never heard of this being nearly as important as you're suggesting. You do say financial/pure business firms, whereas my experience is only with technical companies that also have huge business divisions. Apparently I have a UCAS points score of 779, I should apply to business positions!

This is confirmed when the employment statistics for six months after graduation are looked at.

ehh perhaps, I've never been a fan of these figures.

 

[Shaun_W]

I had a long reply written out although it's pointless. twofish-quant, honestly, you are right.

You asked the question, "What are you going to do if you *aren't* a top graduate?"

From what I've seen, unless you have a STEM degree and can thus apply for a technical job, or unless you get lucky, or unless you have contacts, then there's not a lot you can do nowadays. You can work in McDonalds, I suppose, as even they want degrees nowadays for their business managers. There's not a whole lot of non-technical, non-mundane work in Britain outside of London and a few of the other major cities.

I'm just glad that I'm doing engineering and only want an engineering job. It's not the best paying compared to the elite financial or law firms, but it's not hypercompetitive and you're not driven into the ground. The work is often quite interesting and there is plenty of opportunity to travel (granted, some of these places may be quite dangerous, like Nigeria).

The elite London firms are the most applied to, and they also make up a significant portion of the graduate intake each year. They offer the best wages, which is the main reason why they are the most applied to. When 18-21 year olds think of investment banking and magic circle law, they tend to think of six figure salaries and exclusive London cocaine parties and not 80 hour weeks and backstabbing. Lots of these kids are from wealthy enough backgrounds that they've never had to actually work a day of their life anyway.

 

[twofish-quant]

From what I've seen, unless you have a STEM degree and can thus apply for a technical job, or unless you get lucky, or unless you have contacts, then there's not a lot you can do nowadays. You can work in McDonalds, I suppose, as even they want degrees nowadays for their business managers. There's not a whole lot of non-technical, non-mundane work in Britain outside of London and a few of the other major cities.

And the technical jobs are moving to China and India where the wages are lower. Where that leaves US/UK, I don't know quite yet, and I don't think anyone else does either.

McDonalds has a business model in which they can hire large numbers of low-skill people to do customer service, but this requires a huge amount of skill at the backend. Being a cashier at McDonalds or Walmart requires very little skill, but being a regional manager requires a pretty huge amount of skill.

I'm just glad that I'm doing engineering and only want an engineering job. It's not the best paying compared to the elite financial or law firms, but it's not hypercompetitive and you're not driven into the ground. The work is often quite interesting and there is plenty of opportunity to travel (granted, some of these places may be quite dangerous, like Nigeria).

Depends on the firm. I've worked for some startups which had longer hours than anything in finance. There was the time in which I spent two weeks continuously in the office (i.e. I was sleeping there). But there are some nice firms in engineering.

The problem is that you will go along for a few years, and then suddenly find your nice job disappearing because someone in India can do it for half the cost (and this isn't a hypothetical, it actually happened to me.)

At which point you need to step back and figure out what to do. Personally, you will *need* some business skills, since it helps to be the person deciding what jobs go where, than the person whose job is being moved around.

Or maybe you conclude that it's hopeless to stop the movement of jobs, in which case you want to be the person setting up the outsourced company in India. Or maybe you figure out some job (like being a plumber) that *can't* be outsourced.

The point I'm making is that the notion that you can get a degree, then get a career, and work at the same job for the rest of your life is just not going to work. All those companies that are writing nice recruiting brochures will stab you in the back if they can make money doing it. At this point getting some business skills and respecting the people that have them becomes a matter of survival.

And if you don't like the world, then change it... However, it does get messy. I have a strong sentimental attachment to the United States, so it does bother me when a MNC moves jobs (especially my job) from the US to India. On the other hand, I know people that were born and raised in India, and then don't have a problem with that (and they really shouldn't). I have a sentimental attachment to the US, but most people in the world don't.

The elite London firms are the most applied to, and they also make up a significant portion of the graduate intake each year. They offer the best wages, which is the main reason why they are the most applied to. When 18-21 year olds think of investment banking and magic circle law, they tend to think of six figure salaries and exclusive London cocaine parties and not 80 hour weeks and backstabbing.

I have this annoying habit that I ask a lot of questions, although I've figured out that I can ask as many questions as I want as long as I don't ask them out-loud. The questions that needs to be asked here is "where is all this money coming from?" "how likely is it that I'm going to end up with any of it?" and "what happens when the money runs out?"

One reason I like and respect business degrees is that they give you some very simple math tools for figuring out if there is a problem. If you have X amount of wealth and Y people, then if you are promising more than X/Y to each person, then you are going to have a problem. With a few more easy math calculations, you can figure out when the crap is going to hit the fan.

Lots of these kids are from wealthy enough backgrounds that they've never had to actually work a day of their life anyway.

Sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't be too harsh against "rich kids", since to the average person in India or China, anyone that grows up in the US/UK is a rich kid that can get much more wealth for much less work.

 

[fasterthanjoao]

I wouldn't be too harsh against "rich kids", since to the average person in India or China, anyone that grows up in the US/UK is a rich kid that can get much more wealth for much less work.

I guess people just find it pretty easy to be bitter, it's unfortunate but I guess it creates aspirations as well as illusions , you're right though.

It isn't entirely related, but I have a little anecdote: I have two friends that work for one of the (as in the same as each other) major international accountancy firms, one based in the UK and one a Chinese national based in China. They have similar experience, work similar roles, but my UK friend is 9-5 and gets about £60k before any bonuses - some over time is given from time to time when there's a big project on, so you might have to work a few Saturdays every now and then.

In China, with the same firm, his regular working hours at 9am-10pm - 14 days on (sometimes more), 2 days off. For less money. I have no idea how typical this is, but I always think it's pretty remarkable.

 

[twofish-quant]

I was reading an interesting article online which said that MBA graduates can pay off their debts in two years’ time. Now that's a great ROI, if anything!

I'd be very careful about these sorts of articles. If someone is selling me a car, I'll listen to what they say, but I'll keep in mind that the salesman is more influenced by his interests at making money than in mine.

Same goes true for universities. Also you need to be skeptical about what you read online. You also need to be careful about "bait and switch." If you find out that a Harvard MBA can make you a ton of money, that information could be irrelevant if you have some other business degree.

 

[bleedblue1234]

I am currently a freshman at a top 15 university. We are very hard-science based, but I am currently an international studies major. I was thinking of switching into physics / math / econ but I don't know if that would be advisable (I'm a pretty good writer, but I did well on math (800 math II SAT, 5 Calc BC etc., 5 AP Physics etc.)) We also have a new program in financial economics that is gaining some steam and more firms look to be hiring here. Do you think it would be worth it to jump from a more generalized education in international studies (which involves history, poli sci, econ, and language - currently I am learning Russian) to a math / financial econ / econ major?

From everything I have read, it seems its best to be generalized and globalized. That is why I am trying to learn a new language and keep my options open. The world seems to be changing at such a rapid pace that sticking with one single field, unless you really wnated to be a research scientist, would be foolhardy. However, the environment for engineers / finance seems pretty attractive, especially the job security. I was wondering what you guys thought.