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Are Iraq's people better off now than before the invasion?

  1. Mar 15, 2006 #1
    Some members constantly iterate that the people of Iraq are better off now than when ruled by the despot Saddam. I beg to differ. Check some of the threads related to this topic and consider the question. Consider their quality of life, living standard, life expectancy, ect.

    If you have any thoughts on the topic I'd appreciate your input.

    Oh yeah, I cast the first vote, The people are hurting Bad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2006
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  3. Mar 15, 2006 #2

    Astronuc

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    It's a bit like asking is one better off being hung or being shot. It doesn't matter which, one is still dead.

    Some Iraqis are better off, others are worse off.

    I can't see with the chaos and armed factions kidnapping and killing people that the majority of Iraqis are better off.

    Maybe the Kurds are better off, but the Shiites and Sunnis seem to going down the road of mutual destruction or at least suffering. :frown:
     
  4. Mar 15, 2006 #3

    russ_watters

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    A lot depends on how you define "better off". There are certainly some aspects of being an Iraqi that are worse than before the war and there are certainly some aspects that are better. Overall? It depends on what is important to you.
     
  5. Mar 15, 2006 #4

    BobG

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    That's impossible to answer at this point in time.

    Kurds are better off .... unless Iraq disintegrates and Turkey and/or Iran decide an independent Kurdistan is intolerable. Then life for Kurds takes a turn for the worse.

    Shi'ites at least have a better hope for the future. Then again, not only do they have to worry about terrorists and Sunnis, but they have rival militias even within their own sect. If Iraq disintegrates, they could wind up being "protected" by Iran - marginally better than being controlled by Sunnis.

    Sunnis are much worse off. Most of the terrorism and insurgency takes place around their homes. If Iraq holds together under its current alignment, Sunnis have to live under Shi'ite controls. If Iraq disintegrates, the Sunnis are ones left with no oil fields. The best hope for Sunnis is a civil war that results in an intolerable independent Kurdistan. In that event, Turkey and Iran might find it better to back a Sunni invasion of Kurdistan than to do the invading themselves.

    In fact, if the US were to pull its troops today, a Shi'ite section protected by Iran and Sunni control of both the Sunni and Kurdish regions under a new Sunni dictator would probably be the most likely scenario.
     
  6. Mar 15, 2006 #5

    russ_watters

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  7. Mar 15, 2006 #6

    Astronuc

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    That link is Dec 12, 2005, three months ago. Things have gone somewhat downhill since then. What are Iraqis saying now? And which Iraqis do the media interview?

    However, it seems there was more optimism 3 months ago around the general election and before the surge in violence. Although Sunnis did not seem as thrilled as the Shi'ites or Kurds.

    See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_elections

    The Prime Minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, has some stiff opposition.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2006
  8. Mar 15, 2006 #7

    turbo

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    I recently watched an interview with an Iraqi woman on www.democracynow.org and she was pleading for the US to either start fixing the infrastructure so people could have electricity and clean water, etc, or just get out. Our invasion has done nothing to improve the security of most Iraqis - just the opposite has happened, with death squads from the Ministry of the Interior torturing and executing Sunnis, and Sunnis retaliating against the Shi'ia. Mixed neighborhoods are being "ethnically cleansed" by the stronger factions in each locale, further increasing the divide between the factions, and tearing families and friends from one another. If you want to know what Iraqis think, you would be well advised to avoid all the networks with their "embedded" pet reporters and seek out reports from independent reporters. They may have an axe to grind, but at least you'll get a perspective that is a bit more balanced than the one the US military allows us to see. In war, truth is the first casualty.
     
  9. Mar 17, 2006 #8
    Russ in reply to your post, I posted this in the intro:
    How right you are Turbo-1,"In war, truth is the first casualty."
     
  10. Mar 17, 2006 #9

    Pengwuino

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    A better question is to ask whether or not the Iraqis will be better in the future then they were back under Saddam.

    It's similar to asking whether the Japanese were better off in 1947 then they were before they began their asian campaign.
     
  11. Mar 17, 2006 #10

    BobG

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    Three years later, the good, the bad and the ugly by Richard Engel.

    But Penqwuino's right. The important question is what happens in the future.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2006
  12. Mar 17, 2006 #11
    Thats a hope I think of the Iraqi people and people worldwide.
     
  13. Mar 17, 2006 #12

    Pengwuino

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    People seem to ignore this stuff...
     
  14. Mar 17, 2006 #13
    I voted yes, becuase their future, for the first time, is in their own hands. If they decide to end the voilence they can turn Iraq around. With Sadam, they had no say. Times are tough right now, but in the long run they can be be bettter. With Sadam still in power, they could not.
     
  15. Mar 17, 2006 #14

    Pengwuino

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    This is what most people ignore. It is obvious to almost everyone that their health care, education, and other things are worse off then pre-invasion iraq... but someone tell me what country thrives during and months after a war?
     
  16. Mar 17, 2006 #15

    russ_watters

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    I saw it the first time, Amp, but that doesn't help much at all. Life expectancy may be a matter of statistics (and I'd like to see some....), but "quality of life" and "living standard" are somewhat subjective. Beyond that, some of the most important changes since Saddam are the most subjective: such as safety and freedom. So the point still stands: it depends a lot on what is important to you. You may want to ask yourself: is the right to vote worth sacrificing safety in the short term if you've never had the right to vote before? If people hadn't answered that question in the affirmative 250 years ago, the US wouldn't exist today.

    Plus, that thing about the future is important as well. Everyone recognizes that there is still an ongoing conflict there and the government is still consolodating its power. Yet simutaneously, people demand results now or else declare the action a failure. Those two positions are mutually exclusive, yet commonly simultaneously held.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2006
  17. Mar 17, 2006 #16
    I voted yes.They might not seem like there doing better now but I think in decade or two they will probally have a better ecconmy then they did now.
     
  18. Mar 18, 2006 #17
    I guess it is nice to have the possible prospect of an adequate or good standard of living, adequate or good health and life expectany and so on ... 10, 20 maybe 30 years down the road. And sure - people what what they want now, immediately. The matter resolves to this IMO, what good does these fruits do me if I'm not alive to experience them? Langston Hughs in his poem 'Democracy' imparted that sentiment, what good would it do him if he were dead before the freedom arrived.

    If I were an Iraqi, I imagine I should take the looonnnggg view as suggested. Meanwhile, I'd just brush off the death of my women, children and loved ones to the resignation that things will get better just give it time. Kinda like Sam Cooke's song 'I know a change gonna come'.

    I am getting a picture of whats happening from some of the replies, the Kurds are actually better off, the Shiites and Sunnis will deplete each other and whats left will be easier to manage by whomever ultimately gains control.
     
  19. Mar 18, 2006 #18
    Excellent points, Amp1.
     
  20. Mar 18, 2006 #19
    A local opinion

    A perspective from within Iraq:

     
  21. Mar 18, 2006 #20

    Pengwuino

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    Theres far more perspectives of people who have been there a long time saying things are better then under saddam (many of which actually lived under the guy) alexandra. Anecdotal evidence off someones blog is not convincing.
     
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