News Are Iraq's people better off now than before the invasion?

  • Thread starter Amp1
  • Start date

Are the people of Iraq better off now or were they better off when ruled by Saddam?


  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .

Amp1

Some members constantly iterate that the people of Iraq are better off now than when ruled by the despot Saddam. I beg to differ. Check some of the threads related to this topic and consider the question. Consider their quality of life, living standard, life expectancy, ect.

If you have any thoughts on the topic I'd appreciate your input.

Oh yeah, I cast the first vote, The people are hurting Bad.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Astronuc

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
18,547
1,682
It's a bit like asking is one better off being hung or being shot. It doesn't matter which, one is still dead.

Some Iraqis are better off, others are worse off.

I can't see with the chaos and armed factions kidnapping and killing people that the majority of Iraqis are better off.

Maybe the Kurds are better off, but the Shiites and Sunnis seem to going down the road of mutual destruction or at least suffering. :frown:
 

russ_watters

Mentor
18,979
5,136
A lot depends on how you define "better off". There are certainly some aspects of being an Iraqi that are worse than before the war and there are certainly some aspects that are better. Overall? It depends on what is important to you.
 

BobG

Science Advisor
Homework Helper
110
80
That's impossible to answer at this point in time.

Kurds are better off .... unless Iraq disintegrates and Turkey and/or Iran decide an independent Kurdistan is intolerable. Then life for Kurds takes a turn for the worse.

Shi'ites at least have a better hope for the future. Then again, not only do they have to worry about terrorists and Sunnis, but they have rival militias even within their own sect. If Iraq disintegrates, they could wind up being "protected" by Iran - marginally better than being controlled by Sunnis.

Sunnis are much worse off. Most of the terrorism and insurgency takes place around their homes. If Iraq holds together under its current alignment, Sunnis have to live under Shi'ite controls. If Iraq disintegrates, the Sunnis are ones left with no oil fields. The best hope for Sunnis is a civil war that results in an intolerable independent Kurdistan. In that event, Turkey and Iran might find it better to back a Sunni invasion of Kurdistan than to do the invading themselves.

In fact, if the US were to pull its troops today, a Shi'ite section protected by Iran and Sunni control of both the Sunni and Kurdish regions under a new Sunni dictator would probably be the most likely scenario.
 

Astronuc

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
18,547
1,682
That link is Dec 12, 2005, three months ago. Things have gone somewhat downhill since then. What are Iraqis saying now? And which Iraqis do the media interview?

However, it seems there was more optimism 3 months ago around the general election and before the surge in violence. Although Sunnis did not seem as thrilled as the Shi'ites or Kurds.

See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_elections

The Prime Minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, has some stiff opposition.
 
Last edited:

turbo

Gold Member
3,028
45
I recently watched an interview with an Iraqi woman on www.democracynow.org and she was pleading for the US to either start fixing the infrastructure so people could have electricity and clean water, etc, or just get out. Our invasion has done nothing to improve the security of most Iraqis - just the opposite has happened, with death squads from the Ministry of the Interior torturing and executing Sunnis, and Sunnis retaliating against the Shi'ia. Mixed neighborhoods are being "ethnically cleansed" by the stronger factions in each locale, further increasing the divide between the factions, and tearing families and friends from one another. If you want to know what Iraqis think, you would be well advised to avoid all the networks with their "embedded" pet reporters and seek out reports from independent reporters. They may have an axe to grind, but at least you'll get a perspective that is a bit more balanced than the one the US military allows us to see. In war, truth is the first casualty.
 

Amp1

Russ in reply to your post, I posted this in the intro:
...Check some of the threads related to this topic and consider the question. Consider their quality of life, living standard, life expectancy, ect.
How right you are Turbo-1,"In war, truth is the first casualty."
 

Pengwuino

Gold Member
4,854
14
A better question is to ask whether or not the Iraqis will be better in the future then they were back under Saddam.

It's similar to asking whether the Japanese were better off in 1947 then they were before they began their asian campaign.
 

BobG

Science Advisor
Homework Helper
110
80
Three years later, the good, the bad and the ugly by Richard Engel.

Then: Then there was the time I lost a bag containing $9,000 in cash and my passport. It was returned, an event which Saddam Hussein personally recognized on Iraqi state television in 2001. (The incident was used by the propaganda machine to show the innate honesty of the Iraqi people.)

Now: I cannot walk the streets. I would be kidnapped.
But Penqwuino's right. The important question is what happens in the future.
 
Last edited:

Amp1

Thats a hope I think of the Iraqi people and people worldwide.
 

Pengwuino

Gold Member
4,854
14
Engel said:
Personal safety was a direct result of one’s ability to appease the state, or be lucky enough to stay out of its way. People were so afraid that men told me they wouldn’t even talk to their wives or children about Saddam.

Saddam fought three wars while in power - resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands - so there was a good chance of getting killed or wounded in one of them.
People seem to ignore this stuff...
 
2,903
13
I voted yes, becuase their future, for the first time, is in their own hands. If they decide to end the voilence they can turn Iraq around. With Sadam, they had no say. Times are tough right now, but in the long run they can be be bettter. With Sadam still in power, they could not.
 

Pengwuino

Gold Member
4,854
14
cyrusabdollahi said:
I voted yes, becuase their future, for the first time, is in their own hands. If they decide to end the voilence they can turn Iraq around. With Sadam, they had no say. Times are tough right now, but in the long run they can be be bettter. With Sadam still in power, they could not.
This is what most people ignore. It is obvious to almost everyone that their health care, education, and other things are worse off then pre-invasion iraq... but someone tell me what country thrives during and months after a war?
 

russ_watters

Mentor
18,979
5,136
Amp1 said:
Russ in reply to your post, I posted this in the intro:

Check some of the threads related to this topic and consider the question. Consider their quality of life, living standard, life expectancy, ect.
I saw it the first time, Amp, but that doesn't help much at all. Life expectancy may be a matter of statistics (and I'd like to see some....), but "quality of life" and "living standard" are somewhat subjective. Beyond that, some of the most important changes since Saddam are the most subjective: such as safety and freedom. So the point still stands: it depends a lot on what is important to you. You may want to ask yourself: is the right to vote worth sacrificing safety in the short term if you've never had the right to vote before? If people hadn't answered that question in the affirmative 250 years ago, the US wouldn't exist today.

Plus, that thing about the future is important as well. Everyone recognizes that there is still an ongoing conflict there and the government is still consolodating its power. Yet simutaneously, people demand results now or else declare the action a failure. Those two positions are mutually exclusive, yet commonly simultaneously held.
 
Last edited:
321
1
I voted yes.They might not seem like there doing better now but I think in decade or two they will probally have a better ecconmy then they did now.
 

Amp1

I guess it is nice to have the possible prospect of an adequate or good standard of living, adequate or good health and life expectany and so on ... 10, 20 maybe 30 years down the road. And sure - people what what they want now, immediately. The matter resolves to this IMO, what good does these fruits do me if I'm not alive to experience them? Langston Hughs in his poem 'Democracy' imparted that sentiment, what good would it do him if he were dead before the freedom arrived.

If I were an Iraqi, I imagine I should take the looonnnggg view as suggested. Meanwhile, I'd just brush off the death of my women, children and loved ones to the resignation that things will get better just give it time. Kinda like Sam Cooke's song 'I know a change gonna come'.

I am getting a picture of whats happening from some of the replies, the Kurds are actually better off, the Shiites and Sunnis will deplete each other and whats left will be easier to manage by whomever ultimately gains control.
 

alexandra

Amp1 said:
I guess it is nice to have the possible prospect of an adequate or good standard of living, adequate or good health and life expectany and so on ... 10, 20 maybe 30 years down the road. And sure - people what what they want now, immediately. The matter resolves to this IMO, what good does these fruits do me if I'm not alive to experience them? Langston Hughs in his poem 'Democracy' imparted that sentiment, what good would it do him if he were dead before the freedom arrived.

If I were an Iraqi, I imagine I should take the looonnnggg view as suggested. Meanwhile, I'd just brush off the death of my women, children and loved ones to the resignation that things will get better just give it time. Kinda like Sam Cooke's song 'I know a change gonna come'.

I am getting a picture of whats happening from some of the replies, the Kurds are actually better off, the Shiites and Sunnis will deplete each other and whats left will be easier to manage by whomever ultimately gains control.
Excellent points, Amp1.
 

alexandra

A local opinion

A perspective from within Iraq:

Saturday, March 18, 2006

Three Years...

It has been three years since the beginning of the war that marked the end of Iraq’s independence. Three years of occupation and bloodshed.

Spring should be about renewal and rebirth. For Iraqis, spring has been about reliving painful memories and preparing for future disasters. In many ways, this year is like 2003 prior to the war when we were stocking up on fuel, water, food and first aid supplies and medications. We're doing it again this year but now we don't discuss what we're stocking up for. Bombs and B-52's are so much easier to face than other possibilities.

I don’t think anyone imagined three years ago that things could be quite this bad today. The last few weeks have been ridden with tension. I’m so tired of it all- we’re all tired.

Three years and the electricity is worse than ever. The security situation has gone from bad to worse. The country feels like it’s on the brink of chaos once more- but a pre-planned, pre-fabricated chaos being led by religious militias and zealots.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
 

Pengwuino

Gold Member
4,854
14
Theres far more perspectives of people who have been there a long time saying things are better then under saddam (many of which actually lived under the guy) alexandra. Anecdotal evidence off someones blog is not convincing.
 

russ_watters

Mentor
18,979
5,136
Amp1 said:
I guess it is nice to have the possible prospect of an adequate or good standard of living, adequate or good health and life expectany and so on ... 10, 20 maybe 30 years down the road. And sure - people what what they want now, immediately. The matter resolves to this IMO, what good does these fruits do me if I'm not alive to experience them? Langston Hughs in his poem 'Democracy' imparted that sentiment, what good would it do him if he were dead before the freedom arrived.
Wow, with that attitude, we'd still be British. People chose to accept the risk of death so that their children can have the possibility of freedom.
 

Hootenanny

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
9,598
6
russ_watters said:
Wow, with that attitude, we'd still be British. People chose to accept the risk of death so that their children can have the possibility of freedom.
What's wrong with being British? :devil:
 

Pengwuino

Gold Member
4,854
14
Hootenanny said:
What's wrong with being British? :devil:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Getting a good laugh in this section of the forum is a rarity
 

Hootenanny

Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Gold Member
9,598
6
I thought the mood could do with lightening...
 

alexandra

Pengwuino said:
Theres far more perspectives of people who have been there a long time saying things are better then under saddam (many of which actually lived under the guy) alexandra. Anecdotal evidence off someones blog is not convincing.
The blog I referred to is written by a young woman who has lived in Baghdad all her life. She was born there. She lived there under Saddam, and she lives there now. She knows what she's talking about. You should read some of those entries, Pengwuino - they're about everyday life. They're about the danger, the fear, the way there is no electricity, the crime. They're heart-breaking. Don't tell me Riverbend's views don't count: she's living the reality. Things have happened to her and her family - truly awful things. Sigh...
 

Related Threads for: Are Iraq's people better off now than before the invasion?

  • Last Post
Replies
4
Views
1K
Replies
10
Views
4K
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • Last Post
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
11
Views
2K
Replies
106
Views
11K
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • Last Post
5
Replies
114
Views
11K

Hot Threads

Top