Is This the Most Mind-Blowing Performance Ever?

[Poop-Loops]

Are you saying that Darts can only be present in a B-Field?

 

[montoyas7940]

Who... Me?

 

[Evo]

Yes, but did you throw them with your nose?

If I stood close enough to have the same velocity as the elephant's throw, I'm sure I could do as well. An elephant's trunk is quite agile.

And I have insider information that the elephant had already embibed several gallons of Guinness.

 

[Werg22]

Meh. Elephants aren't that intelligent. I know one that lost all its money betting on the Rangers.

 

[tribdog]

Of course the elephant painting video is a fake. I saw it a few days ago and at first I was so amazed and I completely fell for it. The first half of the drawing blew me away, the second half though when it started going over lines to make them darker and then drawing the flower gave it away. It is a pretty good fake though they just went too far with it.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

That elephants not talented, I can paint better than that. :tongue: I know apes paint, I'm sure elephants can paint, but whether they are budding artists with talent?

http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/splash.php"

http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/splash.php"

I think the paintings are more likely to look like this though:

EDIT: useless fact #283782636726732: elephants may well have more than 40,000 muscles in their trunk alone.

 

[Moonbear]

It's an elephant doing tricks it was taught. What's the point? Have you never been to a circus?

As I said, even if it's a trick it was taught, it's still pretty incredible how precisely it draws...try to get a 5 year old to follow the lines that neatly. Heck, even if there's light pencil lines on the paper that we can't see, or someone coaching it or holding up pictures for it to copy just out of camera view, it's still pretty cool just for the control the elephant has over the paintbrush. (By the way, it is clear the elephant isn't the one deciding when to "refresh" the brush or picking colors...one of the wider angle shots shows the trainer exchanging brushes for the elephant.)

 

[tribdog]

Oh c'mon moonbear. Don't tell me you really fell for it.

 

[Evo]

As I said, even if it's a trick it was taught, it's still pretty incredible how precisely it draws...

I was referring to the video of it throwing darts at balloons.

 

[gravenewworld]

You can't be serious. Do you see how many cuts there are? There is no continuous video of the elephant drawing anything. Just shots of him starting to hold up the brush.

Once again the burden of proof lies with the skeptic. Got any proof yet? I'm waiting. Please supply a link.

 

[Evo]

Once again the burden of proof lies with the skeptic. Got any proof yet? I'm waiting. Please supply a link.

You post a chopped up and badly edited youtube video and claim it's authentic, I am afraid the onus is on you to prove that it's real. The burden of proof lies with you for claiming it's real. Where did you get the notion that the burden of proof is with the skeptic?

I could create hoaxes all day and then tell you that if you don't believe me that you are required to prove me wrong?

 

[Moonbear]

I was referring to the video of it throwing darts at balloons.

I didn't see that one.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Once again the burden of proof lies with the skeptic. Got any proof yet? I'm waiting. Please supply a link.

Actually not, we all know elephants can't paint like humans, you're trying to claim they can. I think I'd accept a simple rendering from an elephant but you're asking us to believe elephants are sophisticated self aware and talented artists. I'd say the burden of proof is on you to be honest.

 

[lisab]

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof; it's not the skeptic's job to disprove an extraordinary claim.

A video that is zoomed in showing only the brush in the elephant's trunk is too easily faked.

 

[gravenewworld]

Actually not, we all know elephants can't paint like humans, you're trying to claim they can. I think I'd accept a simple rendering from an elephant but you're asking us to believe elephants are sophisticated self aware and talented artists. I'd say the burden of proof is on you to be honest.

Where did I ever say elephants can paint like humans? All I said was that the elephant in the original video is the one actually painting the picture.

You post a chopped up and badly edited youtube video and claim it's authentic, I am afraid the onus is on you to prove that it's real. The burden of proof lies with you for claiming it's real. Where did you get the notion that the burden of proof is with the skeptic?

I could create hoaxes all day and then tell you that if you don't believe me that you are required to prove me wrong?

And what have you posted? Nothing.




Elephant art has been known since the '80s. What is in the original video is nothing new at all.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Yeah but no offence the most sophisticate image I've seen on that Elephant art website is a picture of a flower. A self portrait simply is a quantum leap on a picture of what looks like a flower in psychological terms.

I'm willing to accept the video is genuine only if there is corroborative evidence, don't feel bad I don't trust anything the American media says or my own half the time these days when there is an extraordinary piece of news. If I did I'd believe that Iran was definitely building nukes and Ahmadinejhad actually did say "wipe Israel off the map". Both of which have been effectively discredited.

 

[gravenewworld]

Yeah but no offence the most sophisticate image I've seen on that Elephant art website is a picture of a flower. A self portrait simply is a quantum leap on a picture of what looks like a flower in psychological terms.

I'm willing to accept the video is genuine only if there is corroborative evidence, don't feel bad I don't trust anything the American media says or my own half the time these days when there is an extraordinary piece of news. If I did I'd believe that Iran was definitely building nukes and Ahmadinejhad actually did say "wipe Israel off the map". Both of which have been effectively discredited.

I guess the BBC must be lying too when it also claims that elephants can paint other elephants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5203120.stm

Elephants have over 40,000 muslces in their trunks, it probably isn't surprising then that they may have some decent trunk eye coordination.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Now that I'll buy because it's shockingly rubbish and it says that x is the only elephant to master a self portrait. To be honest I'd queery whether it was a self portrait or a picture of another elephant, I don't think there's any way to tell. But since even chimpanzees painting themselves is very controversial, and they are said to have some sort of self awareness, I'd need more convincing that that is a self portrait.

Also I'm still not sure that video is genuine.

 

[Moonbear]

YA self portrait simply is a quantum leap on a picture of what looks like a flower in psychological terms.

Oh, I wasn't buying that it was really a self-portrait. That was just the title of the video, but doesn't mean that's what was being shown. I just think it's cute having the elephant draw an elephant. And, it's still a better elephant than I can draw!

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Oh, I wasn't buying that it was really a self-portrait. That was just the title of the video, but doesn't mean that's what was being shown. I just think it's cute having the elephant draw an elephant. And, it's still a better elephant than I can draw!

Oh yeah I didn't think you did. I'm willing to believe an elephant can paint I've seen the pictures before. But I don't know if that one is 100% authentic, it could be that he's the next Elephant equivalent of Vincent Van Gough or Monet. I just have my doubts like Evo. And I don't think it's that unfair to ask if there's anything more, you know, concrete.

It's like me claiming patently this prairie dog can act:

 

[lisab]

I like the talent of the person who drew this elephant:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1523983&postcount=467

I now return this thread to its original topic .

 

[DaveC426913]

These days I'll be suspicious of anything if it's on YouTube, but granting for the moment that the video is genuine:

Is it hard to believe that an elephant can be trained to create movements such as this and repeat them in front of an audience? Surely we agree that this elephant is going through the motions that it was taught, without any real understanding of what it's doing?

The only thing that stretches credibility for me is the sheer number of strokes in the sequence.

In other words, this elephant can create this picture and this picture alone, and only through repitition.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Possibly, but either way it's not very convincing as a work of art, as either way there's no real art involved. So if either possibility is true, ie it's faked or it's trained. It's not particularly amazing. If it's neither trained nor faked, fairly unlikely, then it's not just amazing the elephant is a genius.

 

[Evo]

I guess the BBC must be lying too when it also claims that elephants can paint other elephants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5203120.stm

Elephants have over 40,000 muslces in their trunks, it probably isn't surprising then that they may have some decent trunk eye coordination.

The article says

Mrs Khunapramot, who set up the Thai Fine Art company after studying the history of art in St Andrews and business management at Edinburgh's Napier University, said it took about a month to train the animals to paint.

Elephant expert Dr Joyce Poole, who has studied the animals for 30 years, said she owned an elephant painting but had not come across animals painting their own images.

The Oslo-based scientist said: "I have seen elephants painting, but it was very free-flow.

"It's certainly capable of drawing an elephant, and could be trained, but might not really understand what it was doing."

So they trained an elephant to paint a pattern. That's a long stretch to claiming an elephant can knowingly paint a portrait. From looking at the pattern the elephant made in the BBC article, there's your proof that the videos are faked.

 

[drankin]

As far as I'm concerned, that elephant painted a picure on canvas. Whether the elephant knew what it was painting or not, I don't know. Regardless, it's impressive. Even if the elephant didn't know what it was painting (painting memorized lines), it's still incredible that it can precisely create those lines.

Now, with this video, it looks like one could be guiding the strokes from the other side of the trunk, carefully hiding their arms or maybe they are guiding the elephant another way, kind of like how you can guide a horse without touching reins.

 

[DaveC426913]

Of course the elephant painting video is a fake. I saw it a few days ago and at first I was so amazed and I completely fell for it. The first half of the drawing blew me away, the second half though when it started going over lines to make them darker and then drawing the flower gave it away. It is a pretty good fake though they just went too far with it.

Other than it breaking your suspension of disbelief, by what criteria do you conclude it is fake?

I don't find the actual presentation taken at face-value is entirely implausible - that an elephant is making recognizable marks.

It does seem that there are those who seem to think that this video offers evidence that the elephant knows what it's doing, at which point they lose me.

 

[DaveC426913]

It occurs to me that actually listening to the video might make quite a bit of difference. I watched it wiyth the sound off. I have no idea what the video is trying to claim, I am only judging what I see.

Are they claiming it's doing something cognitive?

 

[Moonbear]

Other than it breaking your suspension of disbelief, by what criteria do you conclude it is fake?

I don't find the actual presentation taken at face-value is entirely implausible - that an elephant is making recognizable marks.

It does seem that there are those who seem to think that this video offers evidence that the elephant knows what it's doing, at which point they lose me.

Right, this is what I'm trying to say too. I don't see anything that looks "faked" about the video. Whether it means what the people presenting it are claiming, no, I don't necessarily agree, but that doesn't mean the video is a fake, just that there is likely another explanation (like the elephant is trained to trace lines on the paper we can't see from the camera angle...that wouldn't be faked, just a well-trained elephant).

 

[Art]

It's not a hoax, just google "elephant art" and you will get tons of crap.

There's even a national geographic article on it

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0626_020626_elephant.html



More elephant art

http://store.exoticworldgifts.com/prostores/servlet/-strse-277/Painted-by-an-Elephant/Detail

http://store.exoticworldgifts.com/prostores/servlet/-strse-278/Painted-by-an-Elephant/Detail

Elephant art exists but following the links from the nat'l geo site the art they produce is more like you would expect from an elephant http://paintings.novica.com/elephant-art/cz1nnsz22nnstz0nnrz21nn/ .

I suspect the OP video is a bit of self publicity by exoticworldgifts timed to coincide with April fool's day.

 

[tribdog]

I never said an elephant couldn't paint, but I've seen elephant painting about half of the paint ends up on the canvas the rest is on its head and on the ground and on the trainer. If an elephant painting turns out to resemble anything it is a matter of sheer luck. There is no way an elephant can paint a picture like the one on the video without making any mistakes and so quickly. It even picks up the brush and flips the bristles the other way to change direction in its stroke. The only thing in the video that is real is the elephant walking up to the canvas. After that it is clever cg.

 

[DaveC426913]

I never said an elephant couldn't paint, but I've seen elephant painting about half of the paint ends up on the canvas the rest is on its head and on the ground and on the trainer. If an elephant painting turns out to resemble anything it is a matter of sheer luck. There is no way an elephant can paint a picture like the one on the video without making any mistakes and so quickly. It even picks up the brush and flips the bristles the other way to change direction in its stroke. The only thing in the video that is real is the elephant walking up to the canvas. After that it is clever cg.

Ah. You're comparing it to other events that you've seen that lead you to be fairly confident that this is well beyond the capabilities of elephant intelligence.

OK. That works for me.

If one sees a nice smooth dataset, and one datapoint almost off the chart, one should be very suspicious of that datapoint.



I confess, I too took note of the fact that the painter was quite deft about switching the paintbrush's angle of attack when switching the direction of stroke. That is a highly nuanced action.

 

[tribdog]

I have to admit I was completely fooled for the first half of the video. When it got to adding the third and fourth legs though I realized something was fishy. The flower in the trunk was the nail in the coffin. Plus the way the trunk shook before it slammed the brush onto the canvas makes me wonder how it could possibly draw such perfect lines and never once make a mistake.

 

[Gokul43201]

Claim: Video clip shows an elephant painting a picture of an elephant.

Status: True.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/elephantpainting.asp

 

[Poop-Loops]

Now can you all please fall to your knees in amazement?

 

[DaveC426913]

That's what I was hypothesizing - the video is real, no trickery; but there's dispute about the nature of what we're seeing.

It certainly puts elephants very high on the list of intelligence IMO. Ain't ne'er seen no dolphin do that...