This makes me want to immigrate elsewhere.Huckleberry said:I also believe that a human beings right to improve their lives superceeds the laws of a nation.
This document applies to citizens, and moreover to citizens who abide by the law--did you know prisoners lose some of these rights because they break the law? Why should a foreigner be granted any privileges or exemption?Huckleberry said:This document declares that it is a human right to seek Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Human rights belong to people of all nations. This document also states that when these things are threatened it is the right of the governed to reorganize their government to best suit their needs. It is our responsibility to come up with a solution and not to cast blame on peoples of other nations for following in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence. This document is part of the foundation of this nation.
SOS2008 said:Even with the new Patriot Act illegals can buy property in the U.S., because like the I-9 requirements, they only need to present documents, but the documents are not checked in any way with regard to fraud (and for that matter, voter registration too). This is where it would be so easy to start solving a lot of the problem. But Americans need to be educated on these matters and then demand these things from their representatives.
As for the over-all cost illegals are causing to the legal citizenry, we could have easily built a Great Wall of China, and should have done so a long time ago. What gets me is how Bush is the great warrior of terrorism. How can this be the case when he refuses to secure the most obvious thing--our borders?
Huckleberry said:I think this is where we are in disagreement. The laws they are breaking are not their laws. They have no reason to respect the sovereignty of the US. Their survival is more important to them than the laws of any nation.
Huckleberry said:It amazes me that we have laws against illegal immigration and yet the practices of our own government seems to condone it if not encourage it. With one hand where we can see it they say 'stop' and with another one behind their back they say 'come on over'. All this talk about illegal immigrants having the right to vote and get drivers liscences and buying property and getting jobs kind of frustrates me. What is the government's motive for this? What do they expect to gain? It seems obviously intentional to me.
Though with regard to some industries like agriculture where migrant workers have been employed for generations, I'm not so sure.This reduction in wages for the unskilled has likely reduced prices for consumers by only an estimated .08 to .2 percent in the 1990s. The impact is so small because unskilled labor accounts for only a tiny fraction of total economic output.
Costs
The National Research Council has estimated that the net fiscal cost of immigration ranges from $11 billion to $22 billion per year, with most government expenditures on immigrants coming from state and local coffers, while most taxes paid by immigrants go to the federal treasury. The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility.
This is especially true of illegal immigration. Even though illegal aliens make little use of welfare, from which they are generally barred, the costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. The fact that states must bear the cost of federal failure turns illegal immigration, in effect, into one of the largest unfunded federal mandates.
SOS2008 said:Huck, you just reminded me of another thought I meant to mention before. Right after prop 200 was passed in Arizona, of course it was immediately disputed as being unconstitutional, but it has been upheld. The new disputes between state and federal on this topic, as well as environmental regulations (California), etc. are something to take note of. Bush, et al, are in favor of more federal power, and in that same vein bigger government, which is contrary to the traditional Republican platform. And IMO the state and federal disputes just represent another fight over preservation of checks and balances in our democracy.
Many states made inquiries of how they could put similar props on their ballots in the future, so I think you will see more of this--states taking the matter into their own hands because the federal government is failing to address these issues.Huckleberry said:Hmm, seems prop 200 is a good thing for Arizona residents. It requires proof of residency for many services and the right to vote. It also sets punishments for those who violate the law. Unless I'm missing something the only downfall for the citizen is a more rigid, monitored state. Illegal immigrants wouldn't like it.
It doesn't surprise me that this passed in Arizona. It has always been a conservative state. Looking at the number of illegal immigrants that enter this country, by far most of them come in through California and Texas. I wonder how a similar bill would go over in those states, especially since more illegal aliens would be voting against it?
So guess what the debate was on CNN last night? They had members from the Sierra Club on the program, because now there is debate within this group about over-population and whether illegal immigration is contributing to environmental problems. So to this thread I add:cronxeh said:...Now look at Mexico and India - the population is out of control, partially thanks to global as well as local religion and other primal instincts.
http://www.pbs.org/journeytoplanetearth/stateoftheplanet/index_population.html
Too often those of us living with the luxuries of the West assume that the battle to save the environment will be fought amid the turmoil of the developing world. But there's another, more familiar battleground – it's located in our planet's richest country, the United States.
As a result of immigration and low infant mortality, over the next fifty years the United State's population is expected to reach 420 million. The implications are enormous.
Americans live in a hi-tech world of automobiles and factories requiring huge amounts of energy. Our life styles impose more than a hundred times the stress on the planet than many of those in the developing world. This raises one of the most fundamental questions of our time: can our planet provide future generations with even the basic necessities of life?
CNN provided an update on this last night too. Apparently the Minutemen organization has had success and is expanding in size and agenda. Now they also plan to go after businesses that hire illegals. Bush refers to this group as vigilantes, but maybe he should consider the alternative--people marching on the White House?Pengwuino said:Feel like joining those minutemen dudes :D
There still is the matter of the cost that illegal immigration has caused to the states. So states continue to place pressure on the federal government for financial assistance in the matter, and I think the states should, because it's the lax federal policies that are to blame for the problem.cronxeh said:...thats the way it really should be done - i don't see how there could be a universal law that would apply to each state about these things. but then again, state-wide laws are a pain for interstate travelers to cope with
What the PBS program said is that the U.S. produces the highest emission of greenhouse gases per capita because we are such a high-tech country. For example, almost everyone drives a car. When you suddenly add illegal immigrants to this population in such large numbers, it creates an environmental problem no one anticipated. Of course, the problem is that the U.S. has this lifestyle in the first place--the population explosion by illegals only exasperates what everyone here should be trying to reduce.Huckleberry said:What kind of environmental damage in particular were you referring to?
Along this line is that many poor people (no just illegals, though many illegals would be included in this category) drive old vehicles that are not required to pass emissions in some states. I also know someone who has made fake insurance documents. Once again, the police have looked at the document but never verify authenticity.Math Is Hard said:I am required by law to submit my vehicle for smog check every three years in order for it to be registered. I doubt that illegal aliens would pay heed to these restrictions, since they're not really worried about registration or insurance.
This reminds me of something...
I once had a car that couldn't pass smog check. I took it for a trade-in at a dealership and the car dealer found a buyer right away in Mexico. They don't have the same regulations down there. He said most likely it would be rigged up in some way to allow it to temporarily pass smog check and it would be back on our side of the border within 30 days.