Asperger's Syndrome: Myth or Reality?

[zoobyshoe]

Hm. I don't know if I can help you there, in terms of why eye contact makes me feel uneasy. But I would note that not all AS people necessarily are more averse to eye contact. Rather, it is simply another aspect of nonverbal communication that is not understood by AS people. A friend of mine (who is also AS) makes eye contact, but does so idiosyncratically and somewhat inappropriately. (And yes, even though I'm not generally able to make "appropriate" eye contact, I am at least analytical enough to notice when others are or are not making normal eye contact)

That is interesting and true: you don't always need to know how to do something right to know that someone else is doing it wrong.

 

[355113]

That is interesting and true: you don't always need to know how to do something right to know that someone else is doing it wrong.

In the case of my friend, he tends to make a bit too much eye contact; he holds eye contact a second or two too long and too rigidly. It is readily apparent, though some people probably wouldn't notice that specifically and just get a general "socially-incompetent" vibe.

I've also noticed kindergarten/elementary school teachers, or really anyone trying to talk to someone they regard as an inferior or immature/incompetent, will tend to make excessive eye contact, and in a somewhat unnatural and forced manner. Presumably this is to attempt to command the other person's full attention (I guess a mental "lesser" is assumed to be unable to pay attention to multiple things at once), but it is exceedingly frustrating to deal with such people because with them I am unable to maintain any eye contact- it's simply too painful at that point. I've noticed this most frequently at my uni's disability office. This is typically combined with a slower, slightly higher-pitched voice than is typical for normal interaction, again signaling condescension towards the person being addressed.

Grr. So frustrating being able intellectually to analyze human interaction but not being able to usefully apply that knowledge.

 

[zoobyshoe]

In the case of my friend, he tends to make a bit too much eye contact; he holds eye contact a second or two too long and too rigidly. It is readily apparent, though some people probably wouldn't notice that specifically and just get a general "socially-incompetent" vibe.

I've also noticed kindergarten/elementary school teachers, or really anyone trying to talk to someone they regard as an inferior or immature/incompetent, will tend to make excessive eye contact, and in a somewhat unnatural and forced manner. Presumably this is to attempt to command the other person's full attention (I guess a mental "lesser" is assumed to be unable to pay attention to multiple things at once), but it is exceedingly frustrating to deal with such people because with them I am unable to maintain any eye contact- it's simply too painful at that point. I've noticed this most frequently at my uni's disability office. This is typically combined with a slower, slightly higher-pitched voice than is typical for normal interaction, again signaling condescension towards the person being addressed.

Grr. So frustrating being able intellectually to analyze human interaction but not being able to usefully apply that knowledge.

Yeah, your analysis is spot on. It's completely clear to you what's going on.

I have to ask, though, is all eye contact painful to some degree, not just when someone is being condescending and imperious?

 

[355113]

Yeah, your analysis is spot on. It's completely clear to you what's going on.

I have to ask, though, is all eye contact painful to some degree, not just when someone is being condescending and imperious?

It tends to be uncomfortable, yes, or at the least somewhat awkward. I believe this happens to NTs as well- looking at someone in the eye simply becomes awkward or uncomfortable after a few seconds. With me (I can't speak for everyone on the autistic spectrum) that just seems to happen much, much faster than it would for NTs. For most typical interaction, I'm able to pull it off without too much discomfort, and usually without anyone noticing anything different.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It tends to be uncomfortable, yes, or at the least somewhat awkward. I believe this happens to NTs as well- looking at someone in the eye simply becomes awkward or uncomfortable after a few seconds. With me (I can't speak for everyone on the autistic spectrum) that just seems to happen much, much faster than it would for NTs. For most typical interaction, I'm able to pull it off without too much discomfort, and usually without anyone noticing anything different.

It happens to everyone, yes, and can even happen a lot. However the average person can always name at least several people whose eyes they very much enjoy looking into with total comfort, free of awkwardness. This doesn't ever seem to be true for Autistic and AS people. However much they might enjoy someone's company, the direct gaze is always too much. Sound right?

 

[OmCheeto]

I'm sorry.

I've been seeing this Aspergers thread for the last few days pop up and I never bothered reading it until today. I see that it is a very old thread. One of those necroposter threads. Where dead threads come back to life. I think it is a funny word. Anyways, I read a bit of the book mentioned by pattylou; The Curious Incident...

I didn't read much of the story, but it seemed a bit like my birdy story, filled with strange things and strange people doing strange things.

Anyways, I've not read past the first page of this thread, so I don't know why it came back. I'm very tired right now and want to go to bed, and may read the whole thing in the morning.

But I just wanted to say, before I forgot, that I really dislike labels like Aspergers Syndrome. People are all different. Even animals are different.

Hmmmm... There's a man on tv right now making a funny face. The tv's on mute right now because I was listening to edith anne earlier, so I do not know what is so funny. But it is the comedy channel, so I guess it must be.

Good night.

 

[355113]

But I just wanted to say, before I forgot, that I really dislike labels like Aspergers Syndrome. People are all different. Even animals are different.

Of course people are all different. But some people show similar traits, and the purpose of labels like Asperger's Syndrome are useful to classify people who are different from what would be considered "typical" but share a number of similarities with each other. Putting people who have these traits in a similar category can be helpful when we have different needs than the general population.

When people say they dislike labels, what I think they mean is that they dislike stigmas that get attached to labels, even if they aren't personally making that connection. There needn't be any stigma attached to Asperger's: like almost all other human variations, it comes with its benefits and drawbacks, and doesn't make anyone a better or a worse person.

 

[355113]

It happens to everyone, yes, and can even happen a lot. However the average person can always name at least several people whose eyes they very much enjoy looking into with total comfort, free of awkwardness. This doesn't ever seem to be true for Autistic and AS people. However much they might enjoy someone's company, the direct gaze is always too much. Sound right?

More or less. Part of it is just the consciousness of "Oh, here's another aspect of nonverbal communication at which I utterly fail." And eye contact is a much more obvious one than most body language, so I still probably don't notice when I'm doing that wrong.

 

[The Dagda]

A lack of social development skills needs a name. It could have underlying physiological reasons, or you could just be socially inept though so perhaps it's wise to be extremely cautious when assigning labels. This has reminded me of the episode where they think Dr. House has Aspergers, finally they come to the conclusion that he's just basically an arse.

Houses misanthropy can be explained by is Sherlockesque insight into human behavioural characteristics, particularly body language. When you often know when people are lying, fakes probably make you extremely cynical. I do wonder though how many kids get diagnosed as Aspergers incorrectly, and if for some it is even necessary to label them.

 

[355113]

A lack of social development skills needs a name. It could have underlying physiological reasons, or you could just be socially inept though so perhaps it's wise to be extremely cautious when assigning labels. This has reminded me of the episode where they think Dr. House has Aspergers, finally they come to the conclusion that he's just basically an arse.

Houses misanthropy can be explained by is Sherlockesque insight into human behavioural characteristics, particularly body language. When you often know when people are lying, fakes probably make you extremely cynical. I do wonder though how many kids get diagnosed as Aspergers incorrectly, and if for some it is even necessary to label them.

I haven't seen that particular episode of House, though I have heard of it. House does not seem even remotely AS to me.

I think AS is more likely underdiagnosed than overdiagnosed right now, given that it's a relatively new diagnosis and not a whole ton of people have heard of it. I would never have heard of AS, much less been diagnosed with it, if not for my habit of wandering aimlessly through Wikipedia.

 

[Kurdt]

I find it funny when people say how come diagnoses in AS are increasing when people never used to get diagnosed, it must be a made up illness. The simple answer is that people have only been aware of it for less than a century and it is only recently that a significant number of medical staff have become aware of it. Couple that with the rise of the internet and the availability of information about it to the general public. Many people will seek a diagnosis where before they would have known little or nothing about it.

 

[355113]

I find it funny when people say how come diagnoses in AS are increasing when people never used to get diagnosed, it must be a made up illness. The simple answer is that people have only been aware of it for less than a century and it is only recently that a significant number of medical staff have become aware of it. Couple that with the rise of the internet and the availability of information about it to the general public. Many people will seek a diagnosis where before they would have known little or nothing about it.

Worse is when they try to say that we're all sick from mercury poisoning in the MMR shots.

 

[The Dagda]

Worse is when they try to say that we're all sick from mercury poisoning in the MMR shots.

That was debunked long ago.

 

[355113]

That was debunked long ago.

Doesn't stop people from saying it. It was ridiculous when it first came out, given that the MMR shot has never contained mercury and currently I think it's only flu vaccines that still have trace amounts of mercury as a preservative.

 

[The Dagda]

Doesn't stop people from saying it. It was ridiculous when it first came out, given that the MMR shot has never contained mercury and currently I think it's only flu vaccines that still have trace amounts of mercury as a preservative.

Not in the UK I asked last time I had one and they said we don't use mercury in flu shots.

 

[zoobyshoe]

More or less. Part of it is just the consciousness of "Oh, here's another aspect of nonverbal communication at which I utterly fail." And eye contact is a much more obvious one than most body language, so I still probably don't notice when I'm doing that wrong.

Hmmm. It sounds like it has become such an issue in your mind that failure becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

It'd be better if you go about it in the spirit of experimentation. Without being attached to the notions of success or failure, just be open and relaxed and experiment casually to see what results.

(It's funny: I was out with friends last night and because of this conversation, here, I was especially sensitive to, and analytical of, the dynamics of eye contact, and that focus started to screw up my ability to simply do it by instinct. Hehehehehe.)

 

[OmCheeto]

Alrighty then, I've finished reading the excerpt from the book. I may go pick it up today. I just have to know how the story ends. Last night I was so in tune with the young character that I thought surely I must have Aspergers, and must therefore have the disorder. Unfortunately, I took the http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html" , and discovered that not only do I not have it, I'm less autistic than the average person.

I read an interview with the author of the book, and he said some funny things at the end which made me feel much better about myself:

http://www.powells.com/authors/haddon.html"
Dave: The word autism appears several times on the book jacket of The Curious Incident. It wasn't until after I'd finished reading and I'd stumbled upon an article about you that I realized you never actually use the word in the novel. You never cite a specific disability or diagnosis to describe Christopher's condition. It's interesting what the marketing of a book can do to a reader's perception.

Haddon: And I must admit, recently I've been thinking that when the paperback comes out it would be kind of nice to lose all that from the cover. As several people have said in reviews, Christopher tells you all you need to know.

I understand why, when people are marketing a book, they want to give it a hook, why they want to explain things on the cover. But I like the idea of another version coming out with no labels on it whatsoever. One of the nicest reactions I've had to the book, although it was slightly eccentric, was from someone at a publisher that didn't eventually publish it. We were sitting around in their offices talking, and someone mentioned autism and Asperger's, and this woman said, "Oh, I didn't realize there was actually anything wrong with Christopher." I've always treasured that reaction.

It's kind of naïve but perfect. There is a very true sense in which there is something more wrong with the people around Christopher than with him. By the end of the book, although he hasn't profoundly changed in a way, he hasn't changed at all he has managed to restore order to his life. From his perspective, that's been a victory. But if you look at the people around him, they're still struggling with these huge problems. Their story is going to go on. They're the people who in some sense have something wrong with them.

Perhaps normal people suffer from Regpersa's syndrome.

hmmm... looks almost like "Regular Person's" syndrome.

Ick. There's way too many people suffering from that disorder. I wonder if there's a cure, or if through counseling, they might become more unique.

 

[zoobyshoe]

A lack of social development skills needs a name. It could have underlying physiological reasons, or you could just be socially inept though so perhaps it's wise to be extremely cautious when assigning labels. This has reminded me of the episode where they think Dr. House has Aspergers, finally they come to the conclusion that he's just basically an arse.

Houses misanthropy can be explained by is Sherlockesque insight into human behavioural characteristics, particularly body language. When you often know when people are lying, fakes probably make you extremely cynical. I do wonder though how many kids get diagnosed as Aspergers incorrectly, and if for some it is even necessary to label them.

House's problem is that he is in constant pain from his leg. Everyone forgets this. House himself forgets this. If you've ever had any kind of prolonged physical pain you know that your patience eventually erodes down to the flinty, sharp bedrock.

 

[The Dagda]

House's problem is that he is in constant pain from his leg. Everyone forgets this. House himself forgets this. If you've ever had any kind of prolonged physical pain you know that your patience eventually erodes down to the flinty, sharp bedrock.

This is true but as it turns out house is still an arse without the pain, and always was, let's not forget how he becomes when he's denied medication as well.

I think when you are just that intuitive and clever, you learn to read people by understanding human nature. It is hard to detach yourself from just how the minions are on Earth. I may not be a colossal genius like House, but I certainly understand his demeanour. I am more like him than I care to admit, with that job as he sees it (and Dr's are often wrapped up in outdoing each other) that gives House the right to have an arrogant personality because he is simply the best. If he was a potential chess grandmaster who never won a competition, things may be different. Of course it is fiction but it succeeds because there are people like that in those positions in the world, and some of us have met them.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is true but as it turns out house is still an arse without the pain, and always was, let's not forget how he becomes when he's denied medication as well.

I think when you are just that intuitive and clever, you learn to read people by understanding human nature. It is hard to detach yourself from just how the minions are on Earth. I may not be a colossal genius like House, but I certainly understand his demeanour. I am more like him than I care to admit, with that job as he sees it (and Dr's are often wrapped up in outdoing each other) that gives House the right to have an arrogant personality because he is simply the best. If he was a potential chess grandmaster who never won a competition, things may be different. Of course it is fiction but it succeeds because there are people like that in those positions in the world, and some of us have met them.

Can the self-serving, I'm-not-fit-to-tie-his-bootlace-but-I-want-to-grow-up-to-be-him song and dance and get me some vicadin, suck up.

 

[355113]

Hmmm. It sounds like it has become such an issue in your mind that failure becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

It'd be better if you go about it in the spirit of experimentation. Without being attached to the notions of success or failure, just be open and relaxed and experiment casually to see what results.

(It's funny: I was out with friends last night and because of this conversation, here, I was especially sensitive to, and analytical of, the dynamics of eye contact, and that focus started to screw up my ability to simply do it by instinct. Hehehehehe.)

Not really, if it were a self-fulfilling prophecy then all social interaction would be such and I wouldn't be doing so much better in college than I did in high school.

And it seems you too are becoming the centipede tricked by the ant.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Last night I was so in tune with the young character that I thought surely I must have Aspergers, and must therefore have the disorder.

That's just good writing: the author arrived at a way to depict HFA from the inside, with empathy. How autism and AS present on paper, though, can lead to the erroneous conclusion that there is really nothing particularly wrong, it's just pronounced personality traits. The truth comes out when you meet someone with one of these diagnoses in real life and suddenly you understand the problem.

I went to high school with a HFA savant, and there is absolutely no way anyone could confuse him with someone who simply had pronounced personality traits. We used to have a free movie every Saturday night (this was a private boarding school) and every time there was any sort of graphic violence in a movie he would lose it, stand up, and fling his metal folding chair across the back of the auditorium.

AS is very much more subtle, but after someone keeps you pinned in a corner for two hours delivering an uninterruptable monolog of an encyclopedic nature with no apparent care about whether your interested, you will begin to see how it can be socially problematic.

 

[355113]

That's just good writing: the author arrived at a way to depict HFA from the inside, with empathy. How autism and AS present on paper, though, can lead to the erroneous conclusion that there is really nothing particularly wrong, it's just pronounced personality traits. The truth comes out when you meet someone with one of these diagnoses in real life and suddenly you understand the problem.

Not necessarily; most people would not recognize me as AS. I know at least two other AS people (there likely are more who are either undiagnosed or have not mentioned their diagnosis) who do not present significantly differently, or at least not enough so that it is immediately obvious that they are different. But I also knew two AS kids in high school who very obviously were much different- communication skills in particular were severely impaired in both. They were both fairly bright, and one was simply a genius in Academic Team, but there was no mistaking either of them as normal.

AS is very much more subtle, but after someone keeps you pinned in a corner for two hours delivering an uninterruptable monolog of an encyclopedic nature with no apparent care about whether your interested, you will begin to see how it can be socially problematic.

I don't think I've ever done that, nor have I ever actually witnessed anyone with AS do that. I'm pretty sure such reports of two-hour monologues are a combination of stereotype and hyperbole.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Not really, if it were a self-fulfilling prophecy then all social interaction would be such and I wouldn't be doing so much better in college than I did in high school.

And it seems you too are becoming the centipede tricked by the ant.

It's so funny you mention that story. It was a favorite of Glenn Gould, the pianist who was unofficially diagnosed with AS by a long time friend who was both a psychiatrist and an amateur violinist.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393318478/?tag=pfamazon01-20

I have been meaning to bring Gould into the conversation. I was wondering if you'd ever read this book by Ostwald and if you thought Gould fit the AS profile.

 

[355113]

It's so funny you mention that story. It was a favorite of Glenn Gould, the pianist who was unofficially diagnosed with AS by a long time friend who was both a psychiatrist and an amateur violinist.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0393318478/?tag=pfamazon01-20

I have been meaning to bring Gould into the conversation. I was wondering if you'd ever read this book by Ostwald and if you thought Gould fit the AS profile.

I have not. Honestly, I've never been too terribly interested in speculating which people may or may not have had AS- and I've heard all kinds of wild conjectures of people alleged to have AS, from Jefferson to Newton and Einstein to Beethoven to Hitler, and the list just goes on and on to include pretty much every famous person who ever once acted slightly strangely. We can't really know, so I'm don't bother with it. Certainly some people had AS before it was recognized as a diagnosis, but it's futile trying to diagnose them in retrospect.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Not necessarily; most people would not recognize me as AS. I know at least two other AS people (there likely are more who are either undiagnosed or have not mentioned their diagnosis) who do not present significantly differently, or at least not enough so that it is immediately obvious that they are different. But I also knew two AS kids in high school who very obviously were much different- communication skills in particular were severely impaired in both. They were both fairly bright, and one was simply a genius in Academic Team, but there was no mistaking either of them as normal.

I would say most people in the general population have never heard of Aspergers and wouldn't think, therefore, to consider you in that light, despite the fact they might notice odd things about you here and there.

At the cafe where I went last night there is a guy who works behind the counter whom I always notice because he never makes eye contact with anyone he waits on. His eyes dart around glancing everywhere and anywhere except at the person he's talking to. Again, in conjunction with this thread, I polled the people I was with to see if they'd noticed this and if they thought it was odd. They all admitted they'd observed it, but dismissed it as unimportant. One girl even said it made him "cute". I then asked if any of them knew what "Asperger's" was, and none of the five of them had ever heard of it.

The general trend, I think, is for people to automatically dismiss and smooth over any oddities they notice in others, for the sake of social comfort. There is often a big gap between what people notice about a person and what they'll call attention to.

I think you're right that AS is, more often than not, not obvious at first. It usually comes out over time in a slowly building awareness of a constellation of peculiarities.

I don't think I've ever done that, nor have I ever actually witnessed anyone with AS do that. I'm pretty sure such reports of two-hour monologues are a combination of stereotype and hyperbole.

Indeed, you may never have done this, but I have had this done to me by four separate AS people. It may not be something every AS person does, but it is no myth.

 

[355113]

I would say most people in the general population have never heard of Aspergers and wouldn't think, therefore, to consider you in that light, despite the fact they might notice odd things about you here and there.

More than one person I know who was familiar with AS expressed surprise on hearing that I had been diagnosed with it; many people with AS have worked hard at fitting in and passing for NT.

Indeed, you may never have done this, but I have had this done to me by four separate AS people. It may not be something every AS person does, but it is no myth.

Really? I think you are, at least, exaggerating the length of these monologues. Even if they were inclined to rant about some topic for such a prolonged period, no reasonable person would sit there for two full hours listening to it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

More than one person I know who was familiar with AS expressed surprise on hearing that I had been diagnosed with it; many people with AS have worked hard at fitting in and passing for NT.

This I can believe. It's what we were saying before: once you have insight the coping mechanisms can be completely successful. However, if you think about it, can anyone who has specifically and deliberately worked on obscuring their behaviors be presented as proof that not all such people have such behaviors?

Really? I think you are, at least, exaggerating the length of these monologues. Even if they were inclined to rant about some topic for such a prolonged period, no reasonable person would sit there for two full hours listening to it.

I believe two hours was accurate in at least once incident. I had nothing else to do.

These aren't what you'd call "rants". They are more like free form lecture/monologs delivered with no interstices in which to comfortably interject anything. The tone is often academic or technical, or encyclopedic. One guy is into a kind of history/economics/politics dynamic, another is into cars and machines, another is into sci-fi and fantasy, and the last is into Renaissance fair/SCA/Pirate re-enactment stuff. You don't feel the discomfort of listening to a "rant": i.e. emotional venting. Instead, what seems fairly interesting at first slowly becomes monotonous and unvarying and eventually you realize there is no point being made, you're just listening to a sort of waterfall of facts, lists, statistics, and encyclopedia entries. It does not stop. It only ends when you force an interrupt and walk away.

Over time, after many encounters with these people, the diagnosis came out, mentioned in an off hand way while talking about something else and was played down by them as unimportant. One of these guys, in particular though, seems to be exerting himself lately to pick up and respond to non-verbal signs of disinterest. I though it was interesting that this was preceeded by a couple of days of monologs about body language and paralanguage: he'd been doing some reading, I guess, and some of it sunk in.

 

[355113]

This I can believe. It's what we were saying before: once you have insight the coping mechanisms can be completely successful. However, if you think about it, can anyone who has specifically and deliberately worked on obscuring their behaviors be presented as proof that not all such people have such behaviors?

Completely successful? No, not always.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Completely successful? No, not always.

You're still young. There'll come a day when you can present as so normal that everyone around you will feel like they're riddled with complexes and syndromes, and be asking themselves "Why aren't I as even-tempered and well adjusted as 355113?"

 

[355113]

You're still young. There'll come a day when you can present as so normal that everyone around you will feel like they're riddled with complexes and syndromes, and be asking themselves "Why aren't I as even-tempered and well adjusted as 355113?"

That seems unlikely, and wouldn't be a goal of mine anyways. I can get along without people thinking I'm a complete weirdo (most of the time) and once I've accomplished that I'd rather focus on other things.

 

[tgt]

Avoidance of situations that are likely to involve large crowds. Also, to deal with bullying, I've developed a remarkably thick skin- it is close to impossible to actually offend me now. Most of my own issues are either related to sensory or social problems, and I've found that people in college seem to be more accepting than people in high school were. I can easily enough ignore those who aren't accepting, though. The sensory issues are harder to get around.

So withdrawl is your main form of defense mechanism? Any others?

 

[mgb_phys]

I can get along without people thinking I'm a complete weirdo (most of the time)

Presumably if you notice what other people think about you - you don't really rate on the aspergers scale

 

[355113]

So withdrawl is your main form of defense mechanism? Any others?

I suppose it is. What other defense mechanisms would there be? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

 

[355113]

Presumably if you notice what other people think about you - you don't really rate on the aspergers scale

Not even remotely true. I have no idea where you would have gotten such an idea, but it is completely wrong.