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News Attack on Dallas Police

  1. Jul 8, 2016 #1

    Ivan Seeking

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    and possibly all of Dallas. Four officers are dead already.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/da...cross-u-s-over-police-shootings-black-n605686

    I'm not surprised. Every black man I saw on TV today was obviously personally devastated by the events of the last couple of days; as if they have gone beyond anger to despair. It was striking and noticeable even in Obama. He looked so incredibly sad. But I saw this in everyone of color today. Some unstable person or someone on the edge was bound to lash out.

    Correction, five dead.

    Late edit: Another correction. I thought one of the suspects in custody had already indicated this is an attack in response to the killing of two black men by police, but we don't know that. I think they were referencing the protest march and I misunderstood.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
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  3. Jul 8, 2016 #2

    Borg

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    I woke up this morning thinking about the black man who was killed in Minnesota by a police officer. I saw the video on the news last night and it really saddened me that he was essentially gunned down for a broken tail light. Then I saw this story. This is a really sad day in this country for both communities. :frown:
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  4. Jul 8, 2016 #3

    jim hardy

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    Yes Borg one has to wonder how it happened that the Minnesota policeman felt compelled to shoot.
    In the video i watched, the victim's girlfriend says the man did exactly what he should have done -
    -apprised the officer he was permitted and carrying-
    then reached for his wallet
    whereupon by her account
    the officer said "don't move"
    and started shooting when the victim commenced to raise his hands, presumably in the submissive gesture of showing his empty hands to the officer.

    7:07 here, caution beginning is bloody
    http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/falco...h-uncensored-shooting-youtube-shot-by-police/

    What a profoundly sad mistake.

    Sadder yet we have among us a vicious segment that enjoys murder and mayhem and is easily stirred to lawlessness.
    I think they are being exploited.
    .................

    Blue lives matter too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  5. Jul 8, 2016 #4

    Ivan Seeking

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    Wow, they took the guy out with a robot bomb. I've never heard of that being done before.
     
  6. Jul 8, 2016 #5

    nsaspook

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    This doesn't seem to be a chance event like the Minnesota policeman freaking out with a permit holder as this was well planned and executed unfortunately. The police used anti-terror tactics because of a fear of explosives on the subject but nothing was found so I would take the words of the killer to the police negotiators with a large grain of salt.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/09/us/dallas-police-shooting.html?_r=0
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  7. Jul 8, 2016 #6
    We don't need ISIS to rip our own country apart. I'm afraid to say I don't know what the solution is here. There are some deep trenches being dug and decades of problems piling up. We need some peaceful civil revolutions, but can we come together to achieve them or are we just always going to battle.
     
  8. Jul 8, 2016 #7

    Ivan Seeking

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    For starters, don't kill people pulled over for a broken tail light. I know as well as anyone how dangerous the inner cities can be and the cops have a very tough job. But I can also completely understand why black men feel they are being hunted like animals. Since the advent of mobile phones we are seeing first hand what blacks have been claiming for decades.

    Did you notice that when the guy in MN was shot, he laid there and died while the cops offered comfort to the cop who shot him! There wasn't even an attempt to give aid.

    Yesterday, Don Lemon, on CNN, was talking about his days in Atlanta working for CNN as a late-night anchor. His mother always wanted him to check in with her when he got home for fear that he might be pulled over by the cops and killed. A black man driving a Mercedes late at night is in their minds a sitting duck for law enforcement. Well, actually his point was that social status doesn't matter. All that matters is his color.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  9. Jul 8, 2016 #8
    So they had a policy to kill people for tail lights? We should end that yes. Joking aside, how do you get rid of bad cops? Were there warning signs for these cops? In my city there is a cop shortage. How to supply without rushing cops through training?
     
  10. Jul 8, 2016 #9

    jim hardy

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    Not having been there
    but having watched the video posted by his girlfriend , linked up above,

    he was shot for
    stating he had a gun,
    reaching down out of the officer's sight,
    then raising his hands after being told "dont move"
    watch the video and tell me if i'm wrong


    Did he have the gun in his hand ? She didn't say.

    The cop should have not fired if the man didn't have his gun in his hand .

    fair enough ?
     
  11. Jul 8, 2016 #10

    PeroK

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    Whatever the specific circumstances, speaking as a white European, I would be terrified of the police if I were a black American. Black American males appear to be living in a country where police officers feel empowered to shoot them dead at the least provocation. I can't imagine what that must feel like: law enforcement not to protect you as a citizen, but to threaten and intimidate you at every turn, and potentially shoot you dead without warning.
     
  12. Jul 8, 2016 #11

    nsaspook

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    Agree but that case stinks to the high moon of an panic over-reaction to innocent compliance. I don't like the fact we are overloading cases with difference facts into one large police shooting blacks generic object. I see very little police linkage directly related to racial attitudes between cases other than the fact the victim is black.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

    Another case of seeing a gun that wasn't there in a stop.


    http://www.usnews.com/news/us/artic...leads-guilty-in-shooting-of-unarmed-black-man
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  13. Jul 8, 2016 #12

    PeroK

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    The most chilling aspect of this is that, after shooting the man, the officer says with grotesque insouciance "seatbelt violation". On a gas station forecourt? It's just any excuse to stop a black man and point a gun at him.
     
  14. Jul 8, 2016 #13

    PeroK

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    Black citizens should not be subject to a bizarre game of life and death, where someone points a gun at them and if they do or say the wrong thing they get shot. If a policeman pointed a gun at me and said "don't move", I might well put my hands up. That's not a crime worthy of the instant death penalty.

    I wouldn't want to play that game: do exactly as the officer says or get shot.
     
  15. Jul 8, 2016 #14

    russ_watters

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    That perception is real, but is the perception a reality? Or, rather, is the issue as bad as people think or getting worse? I don't know and nobody else does either because police departments aren't required to keep and report such statistics. But what definitely has changed since 1991 when Rodney King was videotaped getting beaten, sparking the worst race riots since the 1960s, is that video cameras and the capability of sharing videos with the world are more common.

    Since no one knows whether the problem of police shooting blacks has gotten worse, no one knows if there is any legitimacy to the anti-police/white movement sweeping America these past 7 years. But ultimately, it doesn't matter anyway. Such things are built on perceptions, not realities. So they can only be fixed by changing perceptions. They also can only be directed by the government from one side of the issue (the police side)...though perceptions can at least be influenced on the other side. Here's some things that can be done:

    1. Mandate reporting of police shootings at the federal level and analyze/study them. This will help ground perceptions in reality and pinpoint areas of concern.
    2. Mandate body cameras and community relations training for police. Make better rules for inter-department discipline and stress management. For example, make rotations from a beat to a desk a normal thing, without a stigma, to cool officers down after stresses.
    3. National leadership must take a reconciliatory posture instead of acting to widen the divide. Don't take sides -- or better yet, take both sides...but wait long enough to make sure you have the facts right before opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. Obama, specifically is a big part of the problem....though his role in worsening the tensions ends in 6 months.

    What would be nice, but isn't something the government could have any impact on (except for Obama*, but he won't):
    4. Change inner-city black culture to where it produces a higher fraction of upstanding citizens and a lower fraction of criminals and wards of the state.

    At least doing #1-3 can help soften perceptions and have an impact on the racial strife. The larger of the two sides of the problem though, is something people have to choose to fix for themselves.

    *As I've said before, but will amplify: the failed promise of being post-racial will likely be one of Obama's primary legacies.
     
  16. Jul 8, 2016 #15

    jim hardy

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    Speaking as a US white guy

    When a policeman approaches me, how is he to know whether he's walking up to Mr Rogers or Machine Gun Kelly?

    Policemen MUST be in control of an encounter on the street. It's their job and they are trained for it.
    So i make sure my demeanor is one of co-operation
    and i make sure my hands are where he can see them
    as much out of respect for the risky job he does
    as respect for the sidearm he carries.

    If there's abuse of police power the place to redress it is in the courtroom where I and the police are equals .
    Because out on the street we aren't equals. I'm outgunned.

    I'm not saying there aren't some bad cops or there aren't mistakes made, as in nsaspook's video
    just that cops are people in a dangerous vocation .


    put yourself in his shoes for a moment and think about what you just said -
    i too would put my hands up, slowly and with palms open so he could see i was not a threat. If his gun is drawn he already feels threatened and i'd better be doing what i can to defuse the situation.
    That's just common sense . When dealing with any kind of lethal power, be it electricity or a police gun pointed at you, you don't tempt fate . You move deliberately and contemplate the result of every move you're about to make.

    old jim
     
  17. Jul 8, 2016 #16

    nsaspook

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    Realistically your Violence Risk Assessment (threat) score would be much lower than a young black male in a car with a busted tail-light and a possible gun.
     
  18. Jul 8, 2016 #17
    There's no "anti-white movement sweeping America" and such a movement could never be legitimate under any circumstances. There's an anti-police corruption/misbehavior movement, which you seem to legitimately believe is equivalent*, and it is in fact based on reality (see the results of the Ferguson investigation).

    If the "few rotten apples" defense can be applied to the police, it can be applied to the BLM movement as well. Even more so, since there's no criterion for using a hashtag and claiming to represent a group.

    *I think it's safe to say that most of the more vocal detractors of police protesters are white and there's a correlation with racism as well, so maybe that's coloring your own perception.
     
  19. Jul 8, 2016 #18

    Averagesupernova

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    When someone has a gun on you your intentions may be to cooperate but the truth is you will be preoccupied with that gun and there will be moves you will make without realizing it. To me this is insane. If an officer cannot do their job any better than this they simply need to get out.
     
  20. Jul 8, 2016 #19

    russ_watters

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    What you put in quotes is misquoted -- you edited out the "police" part, and it is critical. It is anti-police first (which is why I listed it first) and anti-white second.
    That's a poor choice of a justification given that the Justice Department investigation was completely separate from the incident that sparked it and the BLM protest movement. The BLM movement was based largely on lies about what happened in the incident, particularly the "hands-up, don't shoot" lie. Moreover, the Justice Department only focused on the half of the issue that the Obama administration recognizes.
    I certainly did not apply that defense, which should be obvious since the first three of the four systemic actions I recommended were systemic actions toward police as a whole. But I would be delighted if this were accepted as a "few rotten apples" issue since if it was, the BLM movement wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation. But we're having this conversation because the BLM movement believes this is a systemic problem with the [white] police. Frankly, I'm fine either way, but only if it is applied consistently: if you want to say that there is a systemic problem with the way police deal with blacks, fine. But also acknowledge there is a systemic problem in the urban black communities with how they deal with police (not to mention each other). And deal with both. Right now, half of the issue is being ignored, and that goes all the way to Obama, per his speeches over the past two days, not to mention his speeches over the past 7 years.
    I'd like to think you didn't just call me a racist, but I'm having trouble finding another way to read that.
     
  21. Jul 9, 2016 #20

    russ_watters

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