Attempted murder or murder

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wolram

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A man plans to murder another and succeeds, a second man does the same but does not
hit a vital part of his victim and the victim lives, i think they should be charged the same (planed murder) do you agree ?
 

arildno

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You have three levels here, all of which ought to influence the actual punishment meted out:

a) Planning of murder (that is criminal in itself)
b) Attempting murder, to the best of your ability (most definitely criminal)
c) Effect (the level of rights violation actually suffered by the victim)

Your successful murderer is distinguished by the unsuccessful murderer on c), and should therefore be punished more strongly.
 
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I agree with wolram, I don't think the effect should come in play. The intent of the two persons is the same: to murder the other person. Whether the murderer in question is too stupid to actually be able to do the murder is irrelevent in my opinion.
 
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A man plans to murder another and succeeds, a second man does the same but does not
hit a vital part of his victim and the victim lives, i think they should be charged the same (planed murder) do you agree ?
In the US it is difficult to get a murder conviction without a dead body.
 

russ_watters

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Where do you draw the line? If someone cuts you off on the highway should they be charged with 3rd degree murder?
 
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The intent is where you draw the line. Did somebody intent and plan to murder you and actually attempt it (but simply failed), then he is a murderer in my point of view.

The question, of course, would be how to know that somebody had the intent to murder somebody...
 
Where do you draw the line? If someone cuts you off on the highway should they be charged with 3rd degree murder?
I'm fairly certain the crux of the suggestion is the intentionality. So inasmuch as the person cutting you off is not following through with some volition to murder another human being, how would you say this is murder?
 

russ_watters

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In 3rd degree murder, you intentionally do something that could kill someone.

Consider a bar fight: you punch a guy who then slips on a puddle of beer, hits his head on the bar and dies. What separates 3rd degree murder from attempted 3rd degree murder is the same as in the OP's example: luck.
 
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In 3rd degree murder, you intentionally do something that could kill someone.

Consider a bar fight: you punch a guy who then slips on a puddle of beer, hits his head on the bar and dies. What separates 3rd degree murder from attempted 3rd degree murder is the same as in the OP's example: luck.
In my opinion, your example is not murder and it should not be threated as such. It's reckless and agressive behaviour, sure. But if there is no intent to kill somebody, then it is no murder.
It's my opinion of course, but I'm curious why the law does view those things as murder...
 
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I love internet law. :smile:
 

russ_watters

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...I'm curious why the law does view those things as murder...
Because when you do something that you know or should know is dangerous, you are responsible for all the consequences of the act.
 
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Because when you do something that you know or should know is dangerous, you are responsible for all the consequences of the act.
I'm no lawyer, but I think there's more to it than that for a murder charge. In your bar fight scenario, I do not think there was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought" [Broken] involved. Now, if I plan to go to the bar specifically to punch a guy, and then your scenario happens, then it's murder. But without that plan, I don't think you have murder, you just have manslaughter.

Again, I'm no lawyer, so I could easily be wrong.
 
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When I served on grand jury, the prosecutor told us that if during a robbery or other crime, a shooter aims at one person with the intention of killing them, misses and kills a different person, then that would be treated as murder even though there was no intent to kill the person who died.
 
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When I served on grand jury, the prosecutor told us that if during a robbery or other crime, a shooter aims at one person with the intention of killing them, misses and kills a different person, then that would be treated as murder even though there was no intent to kill the person who died.
During a robbery or another crime (felony, at least), I think you could be charged with murder if you yell "bang" at somebody and they die of a heart attack. Basically, if somebody dies while you're committing a felony, it's murder.
 

Office_Shredder

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If something which previously was third degree murder is downgraded to manslaughter, the legislature can simply raise the penalty for first degree manslaughter to match what was previously third degree murder. Nobody's life is actually changed in a meaningful way. I think the murder/manslaughter boundary is fairly academic, because the crimes are already graded to control for various circumstances.
 

Averagesupernova

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If something which previously was third degree murder is downgraded to manslaughter, the legislature can simply raise the penalty for first degree manslaughter to match what was previously third degree murder. Nobody's life is actually changed in a meaningful way. I think the murder/manslaughter boundary is fairly academic, because the crimes are already graded to control for various circumstances.
This seems incredibly stupid to me. I mean raising the penalty.
 

Averagesupernova

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During a robbery or another crime (felony, at least), I think you could be charged with murder if you yell "bang" at somebody and they die of a heart attack. Basically, if somebody dies while you're committing a felony, it's murder.
What about if I sneeze? Yelling bang with an unloaded gun pointed at someone certainly shows NO intention of killing someone. I've served on a murder jury, it would never fly.
 

wolram

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You have three levels here, all of which ought to influence the actual punishment meted out:

a) Planning of murder (that is criminal in itself)
b) Attempting murder, to the best of your ability (most definitely criminal)
c) Effect (the level of rights violation actually suffered by the victim)

Your successful murderer is distinguished by the unsuccessful murderer on c), and should therefore be punished more strongly.
I think any one who attempts murder should be charged with (planed murder), it should not be relevant if the shooter failed to kill his victim.
 

FlexGunship

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During a robbery or another crime (felony, at least), I think you could be charged with murder if you yell "bang" at somebody and they die of a heart attack. Basically, if somebody dies while you're committing a felony, it's murder.
What if the felony is that you're trying to kill someone, someone else tries to stop and you notice they have a weak heart (somehow), so you yell bang to give them a heart attack, but, in actuality, you give a third person a heart attack, but you resuscitate them and escape leaving all three people alive?

I think you should get an award for most complicated scenario.

Okay, I'm going to leave now.
 

Averagesupernova

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Your successful murderer is distinguished by the unsuccessful murderer on c), and should therefore be punished more strongly.
I think any one who attempts murder should be charged with (planed murder), it should not be relevant if the shooter failed to kill his victim.
How far down do we take this? This is the difference between assault and between assault and battery for instance. There needs to be lines distinguished, otherwise someone gets in an argument with me, pokes me in the shoulder to drive a point home and I can charge them with assualt and the penalty could be the same as if they beat me within an inch of my life.
 

wolram

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What about if I sneeze? Yelling bang with an unloaded gun pointed at someone certainly shows NO intention of killing someone. I've served on a murder jury, it would never fly.
This is different, carrying an unloaded weapon is not a planed murder, if some one dies of a heart attack where some one is is using an unloaded gun then this should be a charge of man
slaughter.
 
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What about if I sneeze? Yelling bang with an unloaded gun pointed at someone certainly shows NO intention of killing someone. I've served on a murder jury, it would never fly.
First off, I said "during commission of a felony," not while doing nothing else. If somebody dies while you were committing a felony, the standards for murder vs manslaughter are relaxed somewhat.

Second off, that was clearly a joke, which you were dissecting as if I was serious. Quit that.
 
outcomes are easier to judge than intent. i don't think you want to start making juries' jobs even harder than they are now, or to start locking people up for life every time there is a violent altercation.
 

arildno

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I think any one who attempts murder should be charged with (planed murder), it should not be relevant if the shooter failed to kill his victim.


But the punishment for a planned&attempted, but unsuccesful murder should be less than one that actually succeeded.

Because the rights violation suffered by a victim with merely your thought&attempt at murdering him is less grievous than..actually losing his life.

It is a fundamental principle in Western law that we do NOT punish the evil people are, but for what evil they manage to perform.
 
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russ_watters

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But without that plan, I don't think you have murder, you just have manslaughter.
Note, I said third degree murder. That's also known as "manslaughter". They are two different terms for describing the same thing.
 

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