Attempted murder or murder

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russ_watters

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outcomes are easier to judge than intent. i don't think you want to start making juries' jobs even harder than they are now, or to start locking people up for life every time there is a violent altercation.
Let me put a finer point on it: the point of the criminal justice system is to punish people for what they did to the victim. The victim is the key - the reason why there is a criminal justice system. Wolram is focusing on the defendant. That's not why the criminal justice system exists.
 
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Note, I said third degree murder. That's also known as "manslaughter". They are two different terms for describing the same thing.
This is the first time I've ever heard the term "third degree murder" in my life, so forgive me if I thought you were referring to something different.
 

russ_watters

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No prob. I'm not sure where you're from, but it is a common term in the US:
Before the famous case of Furman v. Georgia in 1972, most states distinguished two degrees of murder.....

After the Supreme Court placed new requirements on the imposition of the death penalty, most states adopted one of two schemes. In both, third degree murder became the catch-all, while first degree murder was split. The difference was whether some or all first degree murders should be eligible for the most serious penalty (generally death, but sometimes life in prison without the possibility of parole).

The first scheme, used by Pennsylvania and the most common among other states:

1. First Degree Murder: An intentional killing by means of poison, or by lying in wait, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated action.

2. Second Degree Murder: Homicide committed by an individual engaged as a principal or an accomplice in the perpetration of a felony.

3. Third Degree Murder: Any other murder (e.g. when the intent was not to kill, but to harm the victim).

The second scheme, used by New York among other states:

1. First Degree Murder: Murder involving special circumstances, such as murder of a police officer, judge, fireman or witness to a crime; multiple murders; and torture or especially heinous murders. Note that a "regular" premeditated murder, absent such special circumstances, is not a first-degree murder; murders by poison or "lying in wait" are not per se first-degree murders. First degree murder is pre-meditated.[5] However, the New York Court of Appeals struck down the death penalty as unconstitutional in the case of People v. LaValle, because of the statute's direction on how the jury was to be instructed in case of deadlock in the penalty phase.

2. Second Degree Murder: Any premeditated murder or felony murder that does not involve special circumstances.[6] [emphasis added]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States

I prefer the term "3rd degree murder" over "manslaughter" because I'm a strong anti-crime advocate and prefer the harsher characterization. Doesn't change the definition, though.
 

arildno

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It should, however, be emphasized that when it is said that we should focus on what is done to the victim, it means that our primary focus should be on the type of rights violation suffered by the victim, rather than just what type of physical act he was subjected to:

To be shot in the head deliberately or being the victim of a stray shot kills equally easy.
But the violation of rights "suffered" in the first case by the victim is much greater than in the latter, since the first implies the perpetrator's active rejection and subversion of the victim's rights, whereas the second case does not.

Similarly, people can suffer horrible deaths without having been the victims of a crime at all, for example be eaten by a crocodile (or similar acts by "agents" who cannot be regarded as morally responsible for their actions).
 
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Because when you do something that you know or should know is dangerous, you are responsible for all the consequences of the act.
even getting black out drunk
 
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Should the intent of an attack be that of murder, yet not result in it, the "penalty phase" of attempted murder is very similar to actual murder in many jurisdictions.
 
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Slightly off-topic, there are conditions where killing another is not considered "murder"
"Justifiable homocide" is a "special circumstance" allowed by federal law as a viable defense.

This would include such matters as killing a violent home intruder, violent rapist, etc...
 
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In the case of a non-violent assault, the victims reaction must be non-lethal in most, but not all, states.
The over-riding rule, accepted in all courts, is that if the victim reasonably presumes a threat of death or great bodily harm, the victim is allowed any and all measures to stop the attack, including lethal consequence to the attacker.
 
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In the case of a non-violent assault, the victims reaction must be non-lethal in most, but not all, states.
The over-riding rule, accepted in all courts, is that if the victim reasonably presumes a threat of death or great bodily harm, the victim is allowed any and all measures to stop the attack, including lethal consequence to the attacker.
the castle law. texas says i can kill some one on my land for being there w/out my permission.
 

arildno

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the castle law. texas says i can kill some one on my land for being there w/out my permission.
Indeed.
And that is why, I think, Pallidin made the qualification:

"In the case of a non-violent assault, the victims reaction must be non-lethal in most, but not all, states."
 

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