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Awakard situation?

  • Thread starter pivoxa15
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Main Question or Discussion Point

In the country I live in, you have to pay money yourself to do subjects at university. I also have to pay money for goods and services. If the service was getting someone do the gardening than I expect the gardender to fully do what I wish him to do. And I pay what he demands. All is well. But when the service is university education then things are different. I (the student demanding the service) no longer call the shots. But I still pay the teacher/lecturer. It's okay if the teacher is good and works hard at helping the students. But if not than its not good. The student however cannot really complain as you can to your gardender. So you have this awakard situation wouldn't you? The boss is really the teacher but you pay the boss. In a democratic world, this kind of situation only occurs in education?

Although is it the case that most students do subject at unversity also for professional recognition in order to find jobs after they graduate. So they are also in it for the paper at the end. So as long as they get a good mark, they are happy. If the students have this mind set than the situation is not as awakard as it may appear because there are other factors besides learning for the sake of learning behind the motivation for tertiary education.
 
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Answers and Replies

  • #2
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If you were the only student at the uni, then I'm sure they would do what you ask. But they can't accomodate for thousands of students wanting a custon education.
 
  • #3
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Good point. Except replace thousands with hundreds or less and custom education may be too strong a word. All is recquired is the lecturer really knowing thier stuff and write detailed solutions to all problems and provide insight into the subject matter.

I had one lecturer who didn't provide any solutions to past exams. And poor lecture delivery including being late a few times.
 
  • #4
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In the country I live in, you have to pay money yourself to do subjects at university. I also have to pay money for goods and services.
:uhh:(?) ...you'll find this quite common even outside of your country

pivoxa15 said:
If the service was getting someone do the gardening than I expect the gardender to fully do what I wish him to do. And I pay what he demands. All is well. But when the service is university education then things are different. I (the student demanding the service) no longer call the shots. But I still pay the teacher/lecturer. It's okay if the teacher is good and works hard at helping the students. But if not than its not good. The student however cannot really complain as you can to your gardender. So you have this awakard situation wouldn't you? The boss is really the teacher but you pay the boss. In a democratic world, this kind of situation only occurs in education?
Unlike gardening, education requires the client's participation...

What does this have to do with democracy?

pivoxa15 said:
Although is it the case that most students do subject at unversity also for professional recognition in order to find jobs after they graduate. So they are also in it for the paper at the end. So as long as they get a good mark, they are happy. If the students have this mind set than the situation is not as awakard as it may appear because there are other factors besides learning for the sake of learning behind the motivation for tertiary education.
One motivated to learn solely for its intrinsic rewards can usually pursue cheaper means of edification (e.g., self-study). Extrinsic rewards usually follow with a professional confirmation of ability (e.g., a diploma).

What is so awkward here?
pivoxa15 said:
If you were the only student at the uni, then I'm sure they would do what you ask. But they can't accomodate for thousands of students wanting a custon education.
pivoxa15 said:
Good point. Except replace thousands with hundreds or less and custom education may be too strong a word.
Wouldn't you consider the curving of grades as a form of "custom education" ?

pivoxa15 said:
All is recquired is the lecturer really knowing thier stuff and write detailed solutions to all problems and provide insight into the subject matter.
And responsible preparation from students should the 'lecturer' prove less than dependable.
 
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  • #5
radou
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In the country I live in, you have to pay money yourself to do subjects at university.
In my country, university is free, until you graduate. If you want to get a master's degree, then you have to pay for your further education.

The exception is if you're employed. Then you have to pay for your whole education, but you have the right to choose professors as you wish.
 
  • #6
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In my country, university is free, until you graduate. If you want to get a master's degree, then you have to pay for your further education.

The exception is if you're employed. Then you have to pay for your whole education, but you have the right to choose professors as you wish.
Are you referring to Germany?
 
  • #7
radou
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Are you referring to Germany?
No, I'm from Croatia.
 
  • #8
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:uhh:(?) ...you'll find this quite common even outside of your country


Unlike gardening, education requires the client's participation...

What does this have to do with democracy?


One motivated to learn solely for its intrinsic rewards can usually pursue cheaper means of edification (e.g., self-study). Extrinsic rewards usually follow with a professional confirmation of ability (e.g., a diploma).

What is so awkward here?


Wouldn't you consider the curving of grades as a form of "custom education" ?


And responsible preparation from students should the 'lecturer' prove less than dependable.
The curving of grades is one reason why professional fields are not looking for specific marks but relative marks. A field like commerce is one where this is popular because it's an 'empty' subject if you think about it. Commerce at its core is all about interactions between people in particular the act of trading and a subject is deemed out of that. It's all hype if you ask me. Having said that economics can be intellectually stimulating at times.

I have tried both and self study is never as good as formal study even if one is studying for intrinsic purposes like I am.

In a democratic world, people can choose what they want if they have a right. If you pay for something than you should have a right of some sort. However in education things are a bit different.
 
  • #9
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Dosen't Germany have free tertiary education? Does that include doing up to a Phd?
 
  • #10
radou
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Dosen't Germany have free tertiary education? Does that include doing up to a Phd?
I think so, although I'm not sure. You'll have to ask someone from Germany. :smile:
 
  • #11
Scotland here, free education for a one of each four years of the degree. (i.e. you have to pay if you´re resitting a year unless its medical or you´re making a drastic subject change).

pivoxa15- most Universities, I should expect yours will be no exception, have a staff-student committee where you can voice concerns such as this through an elected student thereby bypassing the awkwardness. Unfortunately, every institution, paid for or not (remember those that the students don´t pay are funded on a equal level by the Government, so it´s all the same to the lecturers) uses human lecturers! people make mistakes sometimes.

In my experience, most lecturers that the students have complaints about are unaware of the problem - they need to be notified. If you feel the class could benefit from more working in problems, then i´d certainly think its worth saying so, at worst theyll say there isn´t enough lecture time.
 
  • #12
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No, I'm from Croatia.
They have universities there? I thought the education went up to like high school in those countries
 
  • #13
radou
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They have universities there? I thought the education went up to like high school in those countries
Such statements make me very sad.

Then again, I couldn't care less about what you know/think.

Edit: btw, feel free to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Croatia" [Broken] a bit if you're interested, which I doubt you are, but nevertheless.
 
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  • #14
JasonRox
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They have universities there? I thought the education went up to like high school in those countries
Ignorance.

Schools there are probably better than those here! In North America, we teach students to THINK they're learning something and to THINK they're getting smarter. That's the new trend in education.

In Ontario, the basics of complex numbers was taught in high schools 30 years ago, but it's now gone. 3 years ago, they stopped teaching trigonometry in high schools (not a provincial standard although some high schools probably still do, but this will disapear in probably 2 years.) And now, they're comtemplating getting rid of Calculus. Also, we have universities complaining that students are coming in not knowing how to write an essay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, we're really learning and getting smarter here in Ontario. :rolleyes:
 
  • #15
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Ignorance.

Schools there are probably better than those here! In North America, we teach students to THINK they're learning something and to THINK they're getting smarter. That's the new trend in education.

In Ontario, the basics of complex numbers was taught in high schools 30 years ago, but it's now gone. 3 years ago, they stopped teaching trigonometry in high schools (not a provincial standard although some high schools probably still do, but this will disapear in probably 2 years.) And now, they're comtemplating getting rid of Calculus. Also, we have universities complaining that students are coming in not knowing how to write an essay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yeah, we're really learning and getting smarter here in Ontario.
:rolleyes:
This trend of dumbing down could be in line with society because for most people, there is 'no need' to learn a lot of the maths and knowing how to write a proper essay. One could finish high school and get a job or do a degree in a non maths or veggie maths oriented fields and get a decent job. Leave the technical jobs to a small number of minorities in America that specialise in these fields and there are also countries with many technically advanced people like China, Japan, India. So increasing specialisation in the world has brought about this trend. Living standards has gone up and people can comfortably live without knowing all the tehnical stuff so students are not pressured as much and teachers realise that and so the lowering of standards. I could be wrong though.

Essays are even more useless in this regard. I was one who didn't know how to write a proper essay even till today and pretty much know nothing about grammar.
 
  • #16
JasonRox
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Essays are even more useless in this regard. I was one who didn't know how to write a proper essay even till today and pretty much know nothing about grammar.
Nothing to be proud of.

Learn mathematics isn't something that hard. You spend all day at school. You might as well learn something! It's doesn't have to be mathematics, but SOMETHING!
 
  • #17
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pivoxa15 said:
The curving of grades is one reason why professional fields are not looking for specific marks but relative marks.
I don't think they have much of a choice!
JasonRox said:
Schools there are probably better than those here! In North America, we teach students to THINK they're learning something and to THINK they're getting smarter. That's the new trend in education.
...
JasonRox said:
...
Nothing to be proud of.
However, I might have the solution:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=104494
 
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