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Bad Pilotage

  1. Feb 14, 2009 #1
    Don't fly into known icing conditions.

    http://d.yimg.com/img.news.yahoo.com/util/anysize/400,http%3A%2F%2Fd.yimg.com%2Fa%2Fp%2Fap%2F20090213%2Fcapt.47ac24e5a3de43cf8e46f8a78db23205.plane_into_home_nydd113.jpg?v=2 [Broken]

    Pilot error.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home [Broken]

    Families of the passengers should sue the pant's off the airline.

    What a waste of a lovely airplane! :cry:

    http://www.chc.ca/images/Dash8.jpg [Broken]

    My friend flies one, i'm glad he wasn't the captain!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 14, 2009 #2

    G01

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    I saw this on the news last night. A very sad story...
     
  4. Feb 14, 2009 #3
    Especially with a full load of passengers.
     
  5. Feb 14, 2009 #4
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hpSZzqkNMwZvX2xrejSSUOyBGCYgD96BC2DG0 [Broken]

    It looks like he stalled or close enough to it that he couldn't recover. I wonder if the plane had been on autopilot during the flight?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  6. Feb 14, 2009 #5
    You'd think a turbo-prop would have better maneuverability?
     
  7. Feb 14, 2009 #6
    Not flying in ice I woudln't. I would expect it to do exactly what it did, fly straight into the ground. I'm amazed he flew with ice on the windsheild! He should have noticed sluggish controls long before it got that bad, unless it was a sudden - rappid build up of ice. In which case they had no chance of recovering.
     
  8. Feb 14, 2009 #7
    I guess the question is what SHOULD be done if ice is detected in-flight.
     
  9. Feb 14, 2009 #8
    Hit the de-ice button (if equipped), and fly away from the ice.
     
  10. Feb 14, 2009 #9
    If it's that simple...I hope they get their collective butts sued off.
     
  11. Feb 14, 2009 #10
    It depends. It could have happend so fast they had no idea until it was too late. (But I don't think it builds up that fast. I think it takes a few minutes). Also, they could have hit the switch but the system failed to work.
     
  12. Feb 14, 2009 #11
    As you said...how COULD he fly with ice on the windshield and not know?
     
  13. Feb 14, 2009 #12
    Ever shovel your drive way when it's iced over? -not snow, but ice. Imagine what all that extra weight all over the wings does. It breaks your back just to shovel 10ft of side walk. A wing is 30+ feet long.
     
  14. Feb 14, 2009 #13

    Borek

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    From the yahoo page linked by Cyrus:

     
  15. Feb 14, 2009 #14

    turbo

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    These planes have pneumatic boots on the leading edges that can be cycled to crack off ice that is forming. Since the planes are built in Canada and are used there, they ought to be robust against some degree of icing.
     
  16. Feb 14, 2009 #15

    Ivan Seeking

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    Did you all see that the widow of a 911 victim was on the plane? She met with Obama last week.
     
  17. Feb 14, 2009 #16
    I just read an account of her last conversation with her husband...she was on the phone with him, they said their good-byes, and then a loud explosion and a "whoosh" then nothing...I can't imagine her feelings.
     
  18. Feb 14, 2009 #17

    Ivan Seeking

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    The problem coming to light is that this craft does not have an automatic deicing system. There has been legislation in process for 15 years that would require automatic deicing - ever since another plane like this crashed due to ice - but it has never been passed.
     
  19. Feb 14, 2009 #18
    I'm pretty sure they were just sitting in their seats until all of a sudden WHAM you're dead. As a passenger, you wouldn't know what hit you. All you see is gray haze out the window, so you don't have a horizon reference to say "uh oh, were going straight into the ground". The ground would just suddenly appear out your window when you are probably 100 feet in alittude, which would probably then take another half a second before you crash into the earth. By the time you register something bad is going to happen you would be dead before you had time to internalize it. (This is why it's bad for the pilots. They only realize their attitude relative to the earth RIGHT BEFORE they fly into the mountain, at which point pulling up is futile). You are flying along and then all of a sudden the mountain appears out of the clouds infront of your windscreen. 3...2...1....you're dead. Pilot error.
     
  20. Feb 14, 2009 #19

    FredGarvin

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    I'm not ready to throw this on pilot error just yet. A european airline grounded their entire fleet of the exact same aircraft because of this very problem. Also, I heard a report of the weather balloon data from that airport and they had icing conditions up to and above 30,000 ft. The pilot requested three, IIRC, altitude adjustments from the tower trying to lower altitude on approach. The big question now is did they know in their pre-flight weather brief of the icing conditions? I would think yes, but in that area with lake effect weather so prominent it could have snuck up on them very quickly.

    There is not enough information to start throwing blame yet.
     
  21. Feb 14, 2009 #20

    cristo

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    I presume WhoWee was talking about the conversation between the woman and her husband when he was on one of the 9-11 planes.
     
  22. Feb 14, 2009 #21
    Ah, yes. I see what you mean now.
     
  23. Feb 14, 2009 #22

    Astronuc

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    It was an ATR-72 (American Eagle) that crashed near Gary, Indiana - Oct 31, 1994 - due to icing on the wings. It did not have de-icing equipment. 68 killed

    I believe some Dash 8's have deicing equipment, as turbo mentioned the rubber boot on the leading edge. I've seen them in operation on flights I've been on, and I've landed in snow on a Dash 8.

    As I understand it, the crew reported icing on the windshield on the approach. They were flying out of Newark, where the weather was above freezing, but northwest in Buffalo, the conditions were foggy and below freezing.

    The plane was flying under contract to Continental Airlines. The plane is operated by Colgan Air, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Pinnacle Airlines Corp.
    http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/090213/0474070.html
    http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/090213/0474165.html


    Sept. 11 widow killed in Buffalo plane crash
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/plane_into_home9_11_widow_13 [Broken]
    Beverly Eckert was the 9/11 widow who was killed. She was traveling to a family function to observe what would have been her husband's 58th birthday. I imagine this is a huge tragedy to the families.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  24. Feb 14, 2009 #23

    Astronuc

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    We had warm weather Thursday, but it was expected to change from the 40's to the 20 during the evening. When the flight took off, it might have been OK, but the weather could have changed during the flight. We'll have to wait for the NTSB to determine cause, and what did and did not happen with regard to icing/de-icing.
     
  25. Feb 14, 2009 #24
    The thing with ice build up is that you should definately see a noticable change in the handling qualities of the aircraft. It will get more and more sluggish/unresponsive. If this starts to happen, you know you have an icing problem. I wonder if they were just flying it on autopilot the whole time and never 'felt' the controls? I feel like they should have diverted to another airport.
     
  26. Feb 14, 2009 #25

    Ivan Seeking

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    Automatic deicing was the point. If the pilot doesn't happen to notice in time, as was apparently the case here...
     
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