# Belief in Reincarnation Tied to Memory Errors

1. Apr 7, 2007

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
http://www.livescience.com/othernews/070406_past_lives.html

I once agreed to try regressive hypnosis for a local author and hypnotist. It sounded interesting and it was free.

I visualized and recanted four or five "past lives" thoughout the session. Although the images were often vivid, and though a genuine emotional connection was often felt, I was left with the distinct feeling that my mind was grasping for a story when prompted to produce one. On some levels it all seemed very real, but I was also aware that a part of my mind was rejecting the idea that these were memories, and instead was telling me that these were involuntarily constructed memories in response to the promting of the hypnotist. When he would ask, "what do you see now", I felt compelled to produce an answer that I did not have. So in this way it did not seem real. But then I would begin to see images that immediately fell into a storyline, and as soon as these were conveyed to the author, they seemed more like genuine memories. So, while I walked away not believing that I had experienced anything supernormal or genuine, I can see where others might easily be fooled. I should also add that there was one event visualized that was very moving and difficult to shake. To this day [~fifteen years later], in spite of everything that I have said here, that particular memory seems real.

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2. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

Ivan,

There are several important questions here.
1. What is the human memory?
2. What is consciousness?
3. Is there a kind of conservation of energy involved?

From a Buddhist point of view I believe reincarnation exists, already just as a kind of conservation of energy or matter transformed in specific energies.

If Loop Quantum Gravity physicists accept i.e. braids in spacetime, then that means that specific combinations of spacetime are made in the deepest levels.
If these (sundance?) braids can be woven then they have integrity. So these braids MUST be insulated from the other, and MUST have a kind of boundary or be a boundary.
Braids and the woven lattice can be specific "memories" .
Why would such braids only be related to matter and not to spiritual interactions?

On my website you can find how I explain reincarnation with holons (coupled spacetime).

Dirk

3. Apr 7, 2007

### Thrice

Twice as likely?! That's crazy..

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4. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

?

Are you alluding on some quantum superposition, or other magic stuff?
:shy:

5. Apr 7, 2007

### baywax

Then there is always the "genetic memory" explaination for "reincarnation"

And proof was offered in the form of observing worm behavior

http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/neur-sci/2002-February/047901.html

Its possible the idea of reincarnation is a mythological and vestigial remnant of an earlier and broader understanding of geneology or of genetic engineering.

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6. Apr 7, 2007

### Math Is Hard

Staff Emeritus
That "worm experiment" result was likely a false positive. From what I recall, other researchers tried to reproduce the results, but were unsuccessful.

7. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

Worms seem to be very popular. :tongue2:

Here is another one:

Amrit Sorli, A New Understanding of Time and Gravitation in Physics

In The Model of The Dynamic Equilibrium the gravitational field functions as the carrier of the cosmic consciousness and is simultaneously connected to the activities of living organisms and evolution in general. All information about the development of the evolution are in the cosmic gravitational field. The idea is similar to David Bohms idea about The Implicate Order of The Universe and non-mechanistic biologists idea about The Morphogenetic field. The relation gravitation - cosmic consciousness leads to idea, that maybe the density of the gravitational field is higher around living organisms than around the same dead ones. This implies that the weight of living organisms is higher than the weight of the same dead ones.
Fg live = Fg dead + D Fg
*
The results of the performed experiments have shown that there is a difference between the weight of living and the weight of dead California worms. Might be also that at the dead some unknown energy(matter) is living the body, that the theoretically predicted dark matter functions as the morphogenetic field.

and:

Amrit Sorli, A New Understanding of Time and Gravitation in Physics Preliminary experiments have been carried out in the Microbiology Laboratory, Biotechnica Faculty, Ljubljana, Slovenia in June 1987. Measurements have been performed on a Mettler Zurich M5 scales, accuracy 2 micrograms (2x10E-6g), maximum load 20 grams. The experiment was later repeated at the Physical Chemistry Laboratory, Faculty for Natural Science and Technology, Ljubljana (August, September 1988). Two Mettler Zurich scales, type H20T, accuracy 20 micrograms (2x10E-5g), maximum load 160 grams were used in the measurements. Identical results have been obtained.

The experiment involved putting 70 grams of live California worms and one small test-tube, filled with 0.25 ml of 36% water solution of formaldehyde into the experimental test-tube. The control test-tube contained 70 ml of distilled water and a small test-tube with formaldehyde. Both test tubes were welded, wiped clean with 70% ethanol, and put into the weighing chamber of the balance. Approximately one hour was allowed for acclimatization. Later both test-tubes were measured three times at intervals of five minutes. Then the test-tubes were turned upside down to spill the solution of formaldehyde and again measured seven times at intervals of fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes after poisoning, the weight diminished on the average by 93.6 micrograms. The entire experiment was repeated twelve times. The standard deviation amounted to 16 micrograms. The pressure in both test-tubes was one atmosphere for the entire duration of the experiment, the temperature in both test-tubes was the same. Neither the pressure nor the temperature could have therefore been the cause for the difference in the weight.

8. Apr 7, 2007

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
Hey Pelastration, long time no see. Since you visited last things have changed. We need to stay away from theories and stick to any evidence that might exist. Any theories meeting the specified criteria are posted in the Independent Research forum.

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9. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

Why?

10. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

Ivan,

I am very carfull not to post here my theory!
Some moderators would love to ban me. I know.

Strange however that some guys - phd's - with absolute crazy ideas, like a mathematical universe, are given space in awe. :rofl:

Oh, I loved PF in the old days! That was a liberal way of communications. Since Bush people took over ... we are in a different world.

11. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

And Ivan,

if we are in the "Scepticism and debunking" area, can't we give pro's and cont's? And motivate them! Like in the US senate.

12. Apr 7, 2007

### Staff: Mentor

You remember correctly. Thanks to t_e for remembering this also.

"Reconstructing the history of worm-running (McConnell ran a journal called the Worm Runner's Digest for a while!) can be a bit tricky. It was very controversial so textbooks (other than those written by worm runners themselves) tend to just ignore it. Most accounts written at the time are highly polarised, either uncritical or completely dismissive. As a topic it is almost entirely ignored in modern textbooks, probably because nearly all the results were misinterpreted at the time. It is, however, salutary to see how these misinterpretations occurred. It should cause healthy skepticism of more modern claims made about memory which might fall into the same pitfalls (inappropriate memory test, inappropriate interpretation of manipulations etc.). "

http://www.dur.ac.uk/robert.kentridge/bpp2mem1.html

13. Apr 7, 2007

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
The problem is that there is no way to separate potentially valid theories from nonsense. One would have to be an expert at everything! And to allow any theories means that we allow many bad theories that only discredit the forum and the reliable information and evidence that gets lost in the clutter. So, since evidence is all that matters to scientists, I decided to limit the forum to evidence only - scientific and anecdotal evidence are both acceptable. The Independent Research Forum is intended to provide an avenue for inspired thinkers to share their ideas under reasonable guildelines. Speculation is allowed in this forum but only to the extent that it draws upon accepted [mainstream] scientific principles and laws.

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14. Apr 7, 2007

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
15. Apr 7, 2007

### Staff: Mentor

I was trying to edit and it double posted. My post is above.

16. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

Jesus! Is this reincarnation or déja-vu? I should also add that this is very moving and difficult to shake. To this day, in spite of everything that I have said here, your post activates particular memories. It must be an experience I had heard during mainstream discussions about how many hairs (strings) angels have on their head! Was it in 1560 AC or 1570? Ivan we are in 2007!

BTW can you point out where I was supposed to go out of the guidelines? Was it because I was referring to the "mainstream" (speculative) LQG braids approach Smolin likes?

For your info in my email correspondence (Nov. 17, 2003) with Lubos Motl I wrote: "Btw in Oct 2002 I mailed the concept already to Greene, Smolin, etc. but never get reactions."
Lubos Motl answered: "Maybe in Lee's case, his non-answering might be a result of unjustified elitism because his theories are not that terribly different from yours. ;-) Best wishes
Lubos".
So Ivan, what is mainstream?

17. Apr 7, 2007

### pelastration

18. Apr 7, 2007

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
That is an example of something that is far too speculative unless you can provide papers published in a peer reviewed journal like Nature, Science, the International Journal of Theoretical Physics, etc. to back it up. AFAIK, there is no scientific evidence for a cosmic consciousness, so the theory speaks to evidence which does not exist. If there is scientific evidence for this published in a respectable journal like those mentioned above, then please feel free to post it. And of course everyone is free to share personal experiences that seem to involve the unexplained, or well documented evidence of the same.

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19. Apr 7, 2007

### Staff: Mentor

You really can't trust your memory.

I have had a memory since I was three of being in a structure I considered a stone chapel or castle. I'm inside and there is very little light which I see coming though a small rectangle of a window above and to the right, there is so much haze inside that the sunlight is in a visible beam. There is a large picture on the wall to my left. I later realized this was a tapestry, not a picture. For years I kept remembering this image. When I was 12 I was going through a book and I swear I found a drawing of that tapestry in a book on castles. The memory of the tapestry now is nothing more than a haze.

Since I was very interested in castles and history since the age of three, it is very possible that I saw this in a book and made a more romanticized memory of it.

Oddly, I very clearly remember the first time I had this "memory". I was at the end of my parent's driveway and suddenly "remembered" being in the chapel. Even though I was only three, I knew that this wasn't right and didn't mention it to anyone. THAT I still remember quite clearly. What's funny is that I don't believe in reincarnation.

I should clarify that at three, I "read" books by looking at pictures. I could not actually read.

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20. Apr 8, 2007

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
I have had the opposite experience as well. For as long as I can remember, I had these flashes of two blonde boys who hurt my arm when I was a toddler; not sure how young but no more than three I'd say as I can remember the relative height of the bed. From there, I recall being on a table and lying under some of equipment and a bright light. I also had flashes of doctors standing over me and talking.

Even though I only have a few mental snapshots of these scenes, they seemed distinct, so one day I asked mom and dad about. They said or implied that they had no idea what it could be. I seemed to remember that I was at my aunt and uncle's house when my arm was hurt, so I asked my aunt about it, and she also implied that she had no idea what it might be. Now this was starting to bug me. If I was hurt and was taken to the hospital when that young, someone would certainly remember this, so it was hard to understand what I might be remembering. But I stuck to my guns and continued to ask about it from time to time. I had a clear memory that to me seemed absolutely real and I just couldn't believe that I was wrong. And to me this is how most memories are. I remember dreams and daydreams, but I remember them for what they are. I am not aware of any other memories that I believed to be genuine that weren't.

Finally, only a few years ago, my aunt admitted that this did happen. As nearly as I could tell it was kept quiet because the attack on me was unprovoked and malicious- both boys were quite a bit older than me - and it created some bad feelings in the family. So in spite of the fact that I had a total of four people telling me that this never happened, I knew better.