Benazir Bhutto Killed in Bomb Blast

[neutrino]

I'd been seeing only the news of her getting injured while over a dozen people had been killed. Now, it seems, it's official.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7161590.stm

 

[momentum_waves]

What a shame. She was a hero in many ways.

RIP... (very sad)

 

[Moridin]

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/pakistan.sharif/index.html

 

[Astronuc]

Yeah - I just caught the headline.

Benazir Bhutto was assassinated in a suicide bombing.

(AP) "At 6:16 p.m. she expired," said Wasif Ali Khan, a member of Bhutto's party who was at Rawalpindi General Hospital where she was taken after the attack.

 

[arildno]

As long as Muslims do not repudiate those elements within the Quran and the hadiths which give moral sanction to violent response to anyone not considered "Muslim enough", or being "insulting to the faith/Prophet", these types of actions will continue unabated, and spread its deadly consequences beyond the Dar-as-Salaam as well.

It is the moral duty of every Muslim to do that repudiation, in his heart and publicly in his sphere of influence.

 

[Curious3141]

As long as Muslims do not repudiate those elements within the Quran and the hadiths which give moral sanction to violent response to anyone not considered "Muslim enough", or being "insulting to the faith/Prophet", these types of actions will continue unabated, and spread its deadly consequences beyond the Dar-as-Salaam as well.

It is the moral duty of every Muslim to do that repudiation, in his heart and publicly in his sphere of influence.

This argument is slightly off-topic, because BB was likely killed for political expediency more than any sincere moral umbrage.

The problem with your stated hope is the Quran is taken as the inerrant word of (their) god, and strict adherence is required of a true, devout Muslim. Passive "slips" would probably be somewhat excusable, but a conscientious, declared repudiation? Think again.

Now, given that there are internal inconsistencies in the text of the Quran (as indeed with the bible and most other religious texts), I wonder how exactly Muslims can still hold the Quran to be the perfectly transmitted word of god, but that's an argument for another day.

 

[Moridin]

This argument is slightly off-topic, because BB was likely killed for political expediency more than any sincere moral umbrage.

Ah, the classical religious-violence-isn't-really-about-religion argument. What do you think triggered it? If you claim that it is by political motivation only, then please explain where the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers are? Or why the Swedish social democrats didn't blow up the right when the lost the last election?

The problem with your stated hope is the Quran is taken as the inerrant word of (their) god, and strict adherence is required of a true, devout Muslim. Passive "slips" would probably be somewhat excusable, but a conscientious, declared repudiation? Think again.

Indeed, there is only one possible way to resolve that. Reason and secularization.

 

[ahmadmz]

Religious reason or political or even both, this is just sad. It is sad to see things like this happening in my country. These people really need to stop blowing themselves up to kill other innocent people.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This is terrible!

It is more than a little frustrating that she knew people were gunning for her but she still left herself open to attack. Did she intend to be a martyr? She wasn't stupid so I have to wonder...

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

It is more than a little frustrating that she knew people were gunning for her but she still left herself open to attack. Did she intend to be a martyr? She wasn't stupid so I have to wonder...

During interviews she confirmed she knew he life was always in grave danger since returing, but felt her mission and the desire to improve her home country made the risk worthwhile. So I suppose deep down she did intend to be a martyr and knew it was just a matter of time. Whether is will have done any good is yet to be seen.

 

[arildno]

This argument is slightly off-topic, because BB was likely killed for political expediency more than any sincere moral umbrage.

The problem with your stated hope is the Quran is taken as the inerrant word of (their) god, and strict adherence is required of a true, devout Muslim. Passive "slips" would probably be somewhat excusable, but a conscientious, declared repudiation?

Indeed.So, that just means they have the moral responsibility to stop being that.

Of course, it is not only Muslims who have the moral responsibility. We all have that duty.

Similarly, all of us have the moral duty to repudiate the repellent maxims of "Mein Kampf", the difference being that the vast majority of us already have done so, and that we don't find it in the slightest "insensitive" to say to Nazis that they have vile attitudes incompatible with the values of a free society.

 

[Moridin]

Similarly, all of us have the moral duty to repudiate the repellent maxims of "Mein Kampf", the difference being that the vast majority of us already have done so, and that we don't find it in the slightest "insensitive" to say to Nazis that they have vile attitudes incompatible with the values of a free society.

But surely, it would be a major generalization to claim that all Nazis follows "Mein Kampf"? Surely, you should judge Nazism and the Nazis by the center, rather than the extremist fringe? Isn't such a generalization intolerant[/URL]

 

[arildno]

But surely, it would be a major generalization to claim that all Nazis follows "Mein Kampf"? Surely, you should judge Nazism and the Nazis by the center, rather than the extremist fringe? Isn't such a generalization intolerant[/URL]

Yeah, I forgot.

How bad of me..

 

[binzing]

Quote:
This argument is slightly off-topic, because BB was likely killed for political expediency more than any sincere moral umbrage.
Ah, the classical religious-violence-isn't-really-about-religion argument. What do you think triggered it? If you claim that it is by political motivation only, then please explain where the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers are? Or why the Swedish social democrats didn't blow up the right when the lost the last election?

Quote:
The problem with your stated hope is the Quran is taken as the inerrant word of (their) god, and strict adherence is required of a true, devout Muslim. Passive "slips" would probably be somewhat excusable, but a conscientious, declared repudiation? Think again.
Indeed, there is only one possible way to resolve that. Reason and secularization.

Umm...probably because she is a female candidate running a campaign based around bringing democracy to a country that has been in turmoil for years! I don't mean to be an ass, but that was one of the worst respones I've see out of you (Moridin) on this forum.

 

[Moridin]

Umm...probably because she is a female candidate running a campaign based around bringing democracy to a country that has been in turmoil for years! I don't mean to be an ass, but that was one of the worst respones I've see out of you (Moridin) on this forum.

Why would that motivate an act of terror? Because the country has been in turmoil for years? What caused those turmoils? Want to take a guess? :uhh:

 

[BobG]

I take it most see no chance Musharraf had anything to do with Bhutto's assassination? He postponed the elections once and only removed emergency rule under some intense pressure. Musharraf would seem to have the most to gain.

Or else the current events prove Musharraf was right all along and that he shouldn't have bent under international pressure.

Right now, I think it would be hard to draw any conclusions from Bhutto's murder.

 

[mheslep]

I'd been seeing only the news of her getting injured while over a dozen people had been killed. Now, it seems, it's official.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7161590.stm

Tragic. What a brave woman.

 

[gravenewworld]

Tragic. What a brave woman.

Yeah a brave woman who lived a life of corruption.Why don't the news sources present it like it really is? Bhutto is absolutely NO martyr.

 

[mheslep]

Yeah a brave woman who lived a life of corruption.

I certainly am not well read on her days as head of state, but I had the take that she was more like a U.S. Grant in that she allowed through ineptness or inattention corruption to run rampant, but she herself was not chiefly motivated by mere money and power. No?

 

[Astronuc]

Well, whether or not they did it - Al Qaeda is claiming responsibility for the assassination.

Al Qaeda takes credit for Bhutto assassination
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2007/12/al_qaeda_takes_credi.php
By Bill RoggioDecember 27, 2007 12:26 PM

Al Qaeda's central command is taking credit for today's successful assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. A senior al Qaeda military leader in Afghanistan has contacted Syed Saleem Shahzad, a Pakistani journalist for the Asia Times and Adnkronos International with close connections to the Taliban and al Qaeda, and bragged about killing Bhutto.

"We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat [the] mujahadeen," Mustafa Abu al Yazid, al Qaeda's commander in Afghanistan, told Mr. Shazad. The attack was reportedly ordered at the highest levels of al Qaeda.

"It is believed that the decision to kill Bhutto, who is the leader of the opposition Pakistan People's Party (PPP), was made by al-Qaeda No. 2, the Egyptian doctor, Ayman al-Zawahiri in October," Mr. Shazad also reported. "Death squads were allegedly constituted for the mission and ultimately one cell comprising a defunct Lashkar-i-Jhangvi’s Punjabi volunteer succeeded in killing Bhutto."

Pakistan: Benazir Bhutto assassinated
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2007/12/pakistan_benazir_bhu.php

 

[gravenewworld]

I certainly am not well read on her days as head of state, but I had the take that she was more like a U.S. Grant in that she allowed through ineptness or inattention corruption to run rampant, but she herself was not chiefly motivated by mere money and power. No?

Bhutto is/was accused of stealing $1.5 billion in form of government kickbacks and contracts. Bhutto is actually much more popular in the west than at home. She is remembered for having some of the worst human rights violations in Pakistan's history while being PM. She also did not allow media freedom--the same exact thing she criticized Musharraf for. These are just a few of the long list of things I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[edward]

According to the corruption charges against Bhutto, she would have fit right into the American political scene, right down to the six month suspended sentence.

Brian Whitaker
Friday August 8, 2003
The Guardian


Details emerged yesterday of how a £117,000 diamond necklace led to the former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto and her husband being convicted of money laundering by a Swiss court last week.
The pair were given suspended jail sentences of six months each and ordered to repay about £8m to the Pakistani government.

Although Ms Bhutto continues to deny the charges and says she intends to appeal, the Swiss investigating magistrate found that during her second term as prime minister she enriched herself or her husband with kickbacks from a government contract with two Swiss companies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,1014512,00.html

 

[jcsd]

I think people are being far to oversimplistic about what is a very complex poltical situation. There's four main elements vying for power in Pakistan currently (Bhutto's PPP, Musharraf's PML-Q, Sharif's PML-N and the Islamic militants).

Whilst the militants are the prime suspects for Bhutto's murder, it's not inconceivable that it could've been orchestrated by one of Bhutto's more secular opponents (poltical violnce and assasination is common in the region even in the more stable India). It's also worth noting that all the poltical parties profess to being guided by Islamic principles and all the actors are practicing Muslims, so a characterization of the situation as 'Muslims versus reason' nobody in Pakistan would agree with.

As for the corruption charges it is very difficult to judge how true they are given that the political situation

 

[Gokul43201]

Umm...probably because she is a female candidate running a campaign based around bringing democracy to a country that has been in turmoil for years!

And what is your point?

You don't think her being a woman in a position of power offends deep seated Islamic beliefs? You don't think her desire to weaken the power of Sharia law makes most deeply religious Pakistanis hate her for this?

Tragic. What a brave woman.

She was brave alright. But many people will not feel a whole lot of tragedy for the person that was the Taliban's strongest supporter in the mid-90's, a person that diverted over a billion dollars of state money into her personal swissbank accounts and been charged with corruption and money laundering in over a half dozen different countries.

References:

See Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001, by Steve Coll, pp. 290 - 295 (the book is searchable at https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594200076/?tag=pfamazon01-20)

The Bhutto Millions; A Background Check Far From Ordinary

http://www.samsloan.com/benazir.htm

Bhutto sentenced in Switzerland - ordered to return $11 million to Pak Govt

http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19990507/ige07029.html
BobG, after recent unrest in Pakistan over Musharraf's spat with Chief Justice Chaudhry, I believe Musharraf was looking forward to building an alliance with Bhutto. That's the only way I can explain the amnesty he extended to her but not to Nawaz Sharif. I'd previously have thought that Musharraf would have been the one with most to gain from her death, but now I'm very skeptical of that idea.

Corruption amnesty may release millions for Bhutto

Pakistan's Government has cleared the way for Benazir Bhutto, the former Prime Minister, and her husband, to reclaim hundreds of millions of pounds frozen in Swiss bank accounts, according to senior anticorruption officials.

They say the prospect has been raised by a deal between Ms Bhutto and Pakistan’s military leader, President Musharraf, that will allow her to return home from exile this week.

 

[dst]

I think people are being far to oversimplistic about what is a very complex poltical situation. There's four main elements vying for power in Pakistan currently (Bhutto's PPP, Musharraf's PML-Q, Sharif's PML-N and the Islamic militants).

Whilst the militants are the prime suspects for Bhutto's murder, it's not inconceivable that it could've been orchestrated by one of Bhutto's more secular opponents (poltical violnce and assasination is common in the region even in the more stable India). It's also worth noting that all the poltical parties profess to being guided by Islamic principles and all the actors are practicing Muslims, so a characterization of the situation as 'Muslims versus reason' nobody in Pakistan would agree with.

As for the corruption charges it is very difficult to judge how true they are given that the political situation

You're quite correct. When I was in the area (not Pakistan but nearby), it was absolutely shocking how many politicians were assassinated. There isn't exactly a shortage of people in the Bengal region, but the newspapers are just full of death - keep in mind I mostly read the locals. There is only one reason this stands out, because the dead is of very high profile. Many less well-known politicians in the region tend to meet a sticky end regardless.

You don't think her being a woman in a position of power offends deep seated Islamic beliefs? You don't think her desire to weaken the power of Sharia law makes most deeply religious Pakistanis hate her for this?

I find your statement deeply ignorant. In neighbouring Bangladesh, they had Sheikh Hasina for PM at one point, and before that, Khaleda Zia - both women and both remained firmly attached to their body parts throughout their terms. In any case, such an event isn't surprising because the whole region has a history of extreme violence, it's only that there is now a very unstable nuclear-armed country around now.

 

[Gokul43201]

I find your statement deeply ignorant. In neighbouring Bangladesh, they had Sheikh Hasina for PM at one point, and before that, Khaleda Zia - both women and both remained firmly attached to their body parts throughout their terms.

How does that contradict anything I said about Bhutto and Islamism? Also, in neighboring Bangladesh, author Taslima Nasreen had to flee to India when her Government exiled her and Islamic leaders called for a Fatwa. Even today, in India, she faces a constant threat to her life from Muslims angry with her writing. And in India, the Congress party (led by a woman, Sonia Gandhi) won the last parliamentary election, but that doesn't mean there isn't widespread sexism in India.

But why talk about Bangladesh and India? Bhutto has twice served as PM of Pakistan. She (her party) won parliamentary elections in '88, and '93 so there's no denying that a lot of people liked her. But that doesn't mean that a lot of people didn't despise her purely for the reason that she was a woman in power (though I doubt there was a strong majority either way). Moreover, she was never once able to implement a single one of the reforms on womens' rights that she promised during campaigns - they were just too unpopular, and pushing them was too risky, politically.

 

[binzing]

Oh, and to correct the title of the thread. She was shot, the assasin just "disposed" of himself to take along a bunch of civilians. Oh, and Moridin and Gokul, yes the whole "woman in power" thing was surely a factor, I was just stating that you look to causes beyond that of strictly religious base.

 

[EnumaElish]

I strongly suggest viewing the movie Charlie's War (currently in theaters).

Better yet, read the https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802141242/?tag=pfamazon01-20.

 

[Pelt]

Oh, and to correct the title of the thread. She was shot, the assasin just "disposed" of himself to take along a bunch of civilians. Oh, and Moridin and Gokul, yes the whole "woman in power" thing was surely a factor, I was just stating that you look to causes beyond that of strictly religious base.

What other motivations for a suicide attack Bhutto do you have in mind?

 

[Moridin]

Oh, and to correct the title of the thread. She was shot, the assasin just "disposed" of himself to take along a bunch of civilians. Oh, and Moridin and Gokul, yes the whole "woman in power" thing was surely a factor, I was just stating that you look to causes beyond that of strictly religious base.

What is the reason for the irrational fear of women in power? You guessed it.

 

[mheslep]

he was shot, the assasin just "disposed" of himself to take along a bunch of civilians.

Its not yet known whether the shooter and the bomber were the same person or not.

 

[arildno]

I think people are being far to oversimplistic about what is a very complex poltical situation. There's four main elements vying for power in Pakistan currently (Bhutto's PPP, Musharraf's PML-Q, Sharif's PML-N and the Islamic militants).

Whilst the militants are the prime suspects for Bhutto's murder, it's not inconceivable that it could've been orchestrated by one of Bhutto's more secular opponents (poltical violnce and assasination is common in the region even in the more stable India). It's also worth noting that all the poltical parties profess to being guided by Islamic principles and all the actors are practicing Muslims, so a characterization of the situation as 'Muslims versus reason' nobody in Pakistan would agree with.

As for the corruption charges it is very difficult to judge how true they are given that the political situation

And whenever have Muslims lived in peaceful co-existence with each other?
Do you know about the violent Shia-Sunni connflicts?
That of the violent Kharijite sects back in the 8th century?
That of the Ishmaelite Nizaris (Assassins) from the 11-13th?

Or, from the 18th century, that of the Wahhabis?

Throughout Islamic history, various sects have cheerfully murdered each other for not being Islamic enough.

 

[dst]

How does that contradict anything I said about Bhutto and Islamism? Also, in neighboring Bangladesh, author Taslima Nasreen had to flee to India when her Government exiled her and Islamic leaders called for a Fatwa. Even today, in India, she faces a constant threat to her life from Muslims angry with her writing. And in India, the Congress party (led by a woman, Sonia Gandhi) won the last parliamentary election, but that doesn't mean there isn't widespread sexism in India.

But why talk about Bangladesh and India? Bhutto has twice served as PM of Pakistan. She (her party) won parliamentary elections in '88, and '93 so there's no denying that a lot of people liked her. But that doesn't mean that a lot of people didn't despise her purely for the reason that she was a woman in power (though I doubt there was a strong majority either way). Moreover, she was never once able to implement a single one of the reforms on womens' rights that she promised during campaigns - they were just too unpopular, and pushing them was too risky, politically.

I agree that women are treated far from well in more or less the whole world, some regions worse than others. The difference being however, that extremists are not sexist when it comes to murder or call for murder. There is a very simple reason that Taslima Nasreen was removed, because the majority just didn't agree with her. That's democracy, like it or not. On the other hand you have the murder of Theo Van Gogh who produced more profound works - you can only call people 'goat****ers' for so long before they turn on you. I'm sorry to say but where there are a lot of people who are uneducated and intolerant, there will be limits to free speech, one way or another.

Also, just because a woman was in power means nothing when we take into account that she was also rather corrupt. People had a reason to dislike her, a well-founded reason (sure, sexist people might have hidden behind that). Do you actually have any statistics as to how many people dislike women in power in that region? Personally I see the vote as a measure and clearly the majority doesn't let that influence them. Some people still hate Margaret Thatcher over here, is that because she is a woman or is that because they hate(d) her policies?

Of course some people will hate (Rule 34) but seriously, unless you can pull up some statistics to prove what you're saying, I'll let the election results tell me their opinions.

Do you know about the violent Shia-Sunni connflicts?
That of the violent Kharijite sects back in the 8th century?
That of the Ishmaelite Nizaris (Assassins) from the 11-13th?

Or, from the 18th century, that of the Wahhabis?

Throughout Islamic history, various sects have cheerfully murdered each other for not being Islamic enough.

You could list three conflicts from 1400 years? Kharijites had major political issues (not surprising, there was an empire to be had). 'Violent Shia-Sunni connflicts' - Can you list any aside from the more recent in Iraq, and explain how they are any more "religious" than inter-Christian conflicts or any other political clashes?

And whenever have Muslims lived in peaceful co-existence with each other?

Oh, I don't know, possibly... for the last 1400 years in the non-politically rowdy areas of the world?

 

[Pelt]

And whenever have Muslims lived in peaceful co-existence with each other?

If we're talking strictly sectarian conflicts, then there are only two fitnas in Islamic history plus the conquest of the Fatimids followed by the final deposition of the Ismaili caliphate by the Sunni Ayyubids in the 12th century. So we're not talking about an order of difference between the Muslim sectarian fighting and Europe's wars of religion.

 

[Moridin]

If we're talking strictly sectarian conflicts, then there are only two fitnas in Islamic history plus the conquest of the Fatimids followed by the final deposition of the Ismaili caliphate by the Sunni Ayyubids in the 12th century. So we're not talking about an order of difference between the Muslim sectarian fighting and Europe's wars of religion.

One of them stopped. The other still continues.