Big Brother has arrived

Ivan Seeking
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Main Question or Discussion Point

Lamperd, a "firearm training system" company, has patented a bracelet that delivers debilitating shocks when remotely triggered. Their killer app for this is aviation safety: they're proposing that the TSA could force everyone who flies to wear one of these and then flight-attendants could zap us into a stupor if we turn out to be Al Quaeda. [continued]
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/20/air-safety-proposal.html

Since I didn't trust a site called boingboing, I checked. This is from the Lamperd website.
Upcoming Airline Security Project

Todays Security has many layers, should those layers fail there is one last line of defense- the EMD Safety Bracelet, patent #6,933,851. Patent # Search. Lamperd Less Lethal has entered into a manufacturing agreement to develop and manufacture this product for world wide distribution using our current technology and expert knowledge in this field. Pending funding by a third party, we invite Investors to help develop this new technology; we anticipate tremendous interest and demand as noted by the Homeland Security correspondence. Please look at the product video to understand the EMD Safety Bracelet use and concept.
http://www.lamperdlesslethal.com/

Why not just make everyone wear one all of the time?

Heeeeere we go! And note one of the major justifications: Convenience!!! Obviously I think this is a terrible idea. I for one would never yield to such authority. I won't be treated like a dog and submit to wearing a shock collar.
 
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Answers and Replies

TMM
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Terrorists could just use a magnet to disable it.
 
mjsd
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oh my god.... is this really about fighting terrorism? or just increasing state control over the masses and decreasing civil liberty?

If they could find ways to attack us so many times in the past, all they need is some creativity in order to strike again. giving everyone a shock collar does not solve the problem... stupid!
 
Gokul43201
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TMM said:
Terrorists could just use a magnet to disable it.
They will first be made to go through a device that will zap them with a 1000V shock, if it detects a magnet.

Seriously though, is there any government actually showing interest in buying such devices? Until that interest is shown, I think it is still far fetched to claim the arrival of BB.

PS: Now wouldn't it be a whole lot better to just build planes with remote operated trapdoors (leading to disposal chutes) everywhere along the floor?

"Bad guys in sectors K17, G32, M111 and P57"...activate disposal in 3...2...1..."
 
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russ_watters
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Seriously though, is there any government actually showing interest in buying such devices? Until that interest is shown, I think it is still far fetched to claim the arrival of BB.
Gee, and I thought BB was already here?! :rolleyes:
 
38
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A few years ago I don't think even the Department of Homeland Security would have considered this idea. Actually apparently they didn't in 2003 when the device was first promoted.

Today on the other hand with the incessant mission creep that DHS has been going through I can see it as being a definite possibility. Lamperd just needs to learn how to lobby the right people.

Original promotional video:


They didn't explain how they could quickly single out one particular individual from a fully loaded aircraft. What about aunt Edna in row 15??

The devices or, ones similar to them, are used on many prisoners, especially when the prisoner is brought into a court room. They fit around the waist.
 
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Ivan Seeking
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Seriously though, is there any government actually showing interest in buying such devices? Until that interest is shown, I think it is still far fetched to claim the arrival of BB.
I would hope that most people would never allow such a thing yet, but we now have people promoting the technology needed for "science fiction" levels of control. What I have seen over the years is precisely what Edward calls mission creep: What sounds outrageous one day is seriously considered the next.

Ten years ago I would have not thought it possible that we would be debating the use of torture, warrantless wire-taps, fending off the use of tactical nukes, or showing our hoohaws for airport screeners. Life can turn on a dime, as they say. Unless we endeavor to protect our rights and resist those who see the loss of liberty as the only option to protect the public's safety, something like this device will creep into use and then its use will spread into other areas. Here we see the beginning. Does anyone seriously think this will be the end of it as well?
 
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Gokul43201
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Here we see the beginning. Does anyone seriously think this will be the end of it as well?
I do. In the long run, I think societies evolve culturally and technologically in a way that provides greater security while simultaneously permitting greater individual freedoms. In the short run, there will always be hiccups. Right now, we may be in the middle of a burp.
 
drankin
If this actually comes out, which I doubt, there will definately be a drop in airline flights. This would be a huge hit on the aircraft industry. I know I won't be paying an airline to take me from a to b if I have a "shock" bracelet on. I'll drive or float if I have to. I don't see it actually happening.
 
686
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Nobody in their right mind would agree to doing this. No company, for sure.

A T-man would just go to the bathroom and take it off before going ape**** on the plane. Can't take them off until you get off the plane? No F-in way anybody would agree to it.

USA is still a capitalist society. The government can say what it wants (If it wants to. I doubt it will in this case.), but the airline companies would still just laugh at its face and that would be the end of it.
 
Ivan Seeking
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I do. In the long run, I think societies evolve culturally and technologically in a way that provides greater security while simultaneously permitting greater individual freedoms.
Could you give some examples of what you mean? The basis for all big brother fears is the technology that will make BB possible.
 
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If it's about preventing another 911, it's the pilot in control who can easily prevent it. As soon as things get out of hand, he should be sure to be buckled up, disengage the autopilot and start giving random control inputs, a bit of pushing the yoke and some rudder simultanoeusly will make anybody standing, to fly into different corners, making sure that they lose interest in their original plans.
 
BobG
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I would hope that most people would never allow such a thing yet, but we now have people promoting the technology needed for "science fiction" levels of control. What I have seen over the years is precisely what Edward calls mission creep: What sounds outrageous one day is seriously considered the next.

Ten years ago I would have not thought it possible that we would be debating the use of torture, warrantless wire-taps, fending off the use of tactical nukes, or showing our hoohaws for airport screeners. Life can turn on a dime, as they say. Unless we endeavor to protect our rights and resist those who see the loss of liberty as the only option to protect the public's safety, something like this device will creep into use and then its use will spread into other areas. Here we see the beginning. Does anyone seriously think this will be the end of it as well?
I find it surprising that people would accept warrantless wiretaps but be offended by improved airport screeners or shock collars. If warrantless wiretaps don't bother a person because they have nothing to hide, then why would a shock collar upset them when they'll never be activated for the average passenger? And why the concern over some unknown person seeing some anonymous unkown naked body (which is what you appear as to the airport screener)?

I wouldn't like the idea of shock collars either, but it would only rank second on my list behind warrantless wiretaps. I'd find them a little humiliating, plus you'd have that thought lurking in the back of your head about what happens if the flight crew gets bored on a long flight. The improved body scanners are a good idea and those don't bother me at all.

Edit: And it's not the impact to the "average person" that matters when it comes to warrantless wiretaps. It's the increased capability to push the limits of the law in order to target some political enemy - just as was actually done in the 70's. Shock collars don't provide quite the same capability to distort the democratic process - all though a well bribed employee pushing the button as the opposing candidate departed a plane in front of the press could probably make for some entertaining you-tube videos.
 
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I still believe that the best course of action is for, after being seated, every passenger on the plane is intentionally drugged/anesthetized. This requires less food, drinks, movies, terrorist problems. And it makes it so the travel for the passenger is instant. Just keep a R.N. on board with an individual pulse meter at each seat. Bingo, there's my billion dollar corporation. Offers instant travel anywhere in the world and a minimum possibility of terrorist interference!
 
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Just so you know, the government already has the ability to track you at any moment if they wanted to, and they dont even have to plant a bug on you! How could they do it? Simple, your cell phone. It has a built in GPS thats used when you call 911. I think its entirely possible for the government to 'call' your phone and activate the GPS without it showing up as you receing a call on your phone. (You would be totally clueless). In fact, they could even make your phone appear to 'lose reception' as they are tracking you so that you dont become suspcious that you're not getting any incomming calls.
 
Just so you know, the government already has the ability to track you at any moment if they wanted to, and they dont even have to plant a bug on you! How could they do it? Simple, your cell phone. It has a built in GPS thats used when you call 911. I think its entirely possible for the government to 'call' your phone and activate the GPS without it showing up as you receing a call on your phone. (You would be totally clueless). In fact, they could even make your phone appear to 'lose reception' as they are tracking you so that you dont become suspcious that you're not getting any incomming calls.
Only CDMA phones and a few of the latest, most advanced GSM smartphones use GPS. Advice: get an older, unlocked GSM phone or a newer basic GSM model (In the US, thats from AT&T or T-Mobile), and avoid CDMA phones (In the US, thats from Verizon, Sprint, and Alltel) at all costs. Beware, though; GSM chip makers are now beginning to include GPS as a standard. To my knowledge, Nokia still makes their own chips, and does not add GPS, so I think their latest phones may still be safe... for the time being.
 
oh my god.... is this really about fighting terrorism? or just increasing state control over the masses and decreasing civil liberty?

If they could find ways to attack us so many times in the past, all they need is some creativity in order to strike again. giving everyone a shock collar does not solve the problem... stupid!
This is totally sick... for more than one reason. First of all, this is leading straight into a loss of civil liberty, since this practice can then spread into other areas of life just like it was previously mentioned. Secondly, I don't want to rely on some under-paid air marshal to make sure I don't get zapped inadvertently when I'm wearing the thing, less lethal or not. Thirdly, terrorists don't need to dink around with some stupid magnets to disable the thing; there is a much bigger opportunity here for them, since they will just need a couple more years to infiltrate the TSA (if they haven't already...) so that they can just be "doing their job" and gain control of the collars on all passengers on a given flight! How's that for scary!
 
Evo
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=cyrus]Just so you know, the government already has the ability to track you at any moment if they wanted to, and they dont even have to plant a bug on you! How could they do it? Simple, your cell phone. It has a built in GPS thats used when you call 911. I think its entirely possible for the government to 'call' your phone and activate the GPS without it showing up as you receing a call on your phone. (You would be totally clueless). In fact, they could even make your phone appear to 'lose reception' as they are tracking you so that you dont become suspcious that you're not getting any incomming calls.
Only CDMA phones and a few of the latest, most advanced GSM smartphones use GPS. Advice: get an older, unlocked GSM phone or a newer basic GSM model (In the US, thats from AT&T or T-Mobile), and avoid CDMA phones (In the US, thats from Verizon, Sprint, and Alltel) at all costs. Beware, though; GSM chip makers are now beginning to include GPS as a standard. To my knowledge, Nokia still makes their own chips, and does not add GPS, so I think their latest phones may still be safe... for the time being.
Oh geeze,this is just so wrong.

E-911 is not the same as having a GPS enabled phone. You can have an e-911 enabled phone but it will not have a gps chip inside it and will need a separate GPS puck, if one is even available for your phone. :rolleyes:

IDEN (Nextel phones) were the first and are still predominantly the leader in GPS enabled phones for tracking.

The other types (CDMA, etc...) are newcomers and tracking companies are just now starting to certify some of these phones for tracking.
 
Argentum Vulpes
For a simpler (but very expensive) way of stopping hijacking and/or a terrorist getting control of airplanes, why not install some sort of a panic system on all commercial airlines.

Almost all of the airplane out there today can fly them self, and at the right type of feild can land themself. The only reasion to have a pilot and copilot is to take over if the planes flight computer goes tits up. It is just like the joke:

Did you hear that ____________ (insert an airline company) is replacing all of there copilots with a dog. The dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

Sorry for that sidetrack in my post, now back to my regular scheduled post.

Put a big red button in the cockpit that when activated will run a hardwired set of commands into the flight hardware that renders all human input from anywhere on the plane inoperable, and have the plane land itself at a set of designated emergency fields distributed across the US.

With the retrofitting of all airplanes with reinforced cockpit doors this will give the pilot ample time to activate the system, and as a great side effect if for some reason all of the flight crew becomes incapacitated if there is no one on the plane that can land it, well no problem just hit the big red button.

This idea would eliminate any commercial airliner as a hyjacking/terrorist tool and wouldn't step on anyones civil liberties, or get BB on you.
 
Argentum Vulpes
Only CDMA phones and a few of the latest, most advanced GSM smartphones use GPS. Advice: get an older, unlocked GSM phone or a newer basic GSM model (In the US, thats from AT&T or T-Mobile), and avoid CDMA phones (In the US, thats from Verizon, Sprint, and Alltel) at all costs. Beware, though; GSM chip makers are now beginning to include GPS as a standard. To my knowledge, Nokia still makes their own chips, and does not add GPS, so I think their latest phones may still be safe... for the time being.
If you are worried about the government tracking you by your cell then here is an idea don't get one. Then you'd have to use landlines, but they can tap thoes.... Hummm, do all of your communication by the post office. Nope can't do that they can open your mail and read what you wrote. Ok lets go to pigeons, but then the big mean old government could intercept your birds in flight and read your notes.

Or instead of all of this paranoid stuff just realize that the FBI/CIA/NSA has much better things to do then spend all of there time spying on average Joe citizen. If you don't do anything to pop up on there radar then they will leave you alone and actually look at credible threats to the citizen of the USA and our allies.

Also take this post for what it is. And that is I'm really getting sick of all of this conspiracy theory stuff, and blowing off steam. I really shouldn't stray out of General discussion sometimes. Heck for most of it to be true the government would have to be bigger then the lumbering bureaucratic beast of the USSR.
 
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If it is actually happening , and we know that it is, it isn't a conspiracy theory. It is a matter of the constitution ending up in Cheney's paper shredder.

We already know that employees of contracted private companies have been snooping into data they have gathered for the government.

It doesn't take a conspiracy theory to realise that this information may end up in the wrong hands. If the price is right it is highly possible that private information could be used for anything from stock market manipulation to industrial spying.

Watch:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/

to get a close look at the mentality of the people running this country.
 
Ivan Seeking
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The greatest threats to liberty are not conspiracies or abuses of power. The greatest threats are apathy, denial, and naivety.
 
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These are inherent tradeoffs to living in the information age of society. Personally, I like the fact that 911 can locate me when im in an emergency. Or that google knows what I search and thus can find things faster for me, and have adds that I might like. I like being connected to friends on places like facebook, and getting latest minute information on whats going on around the world. But all this comes with a built in price. The loss of privacy.

Theres even a website called www.flightaware.com I was able to track a flight in my small cessna using it!

Dont like traffic? Guess what, the state of MD has cameras at almost every traffic light that monitors the roads for delays and gives up to date information. But that also means if the wanted to, they could watch you drive through each and every intersection on your way to your destination.
 
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Oh geeze,this is just so wrong.

E-911 is not the same as having a GPS enabled phone. You can have an e-911 enabled phone but it will not have a gps chip inside it and will need a separate GPS puck, if one is even available for your phone. :rolleyes:

IDEN (Nextel phones) were the first and are still predominantly the leader in GPS enabled phones for tracking.

The other types (CDMA, etc...) are newcomers and tracking companies are just now starting to certify some of these phones for tracking.
Well, you are right. And having worked for Sprint and Nextel once upon a time, I should have known better. I said some stupid things, and I'm sorry I did. Well, I opened my mouth and clearly removed any doubt that I'm a fool...
 
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If you are worried about the government tracking you by your cell then here is an idea don't get one. Then you'd have to use landlines, but they can tap thoes.... Hummm, do all of your communication by the post office. Nope can't do that they can open your mail and read what you wrote. Ok lets go to pigeons, but then the big mean old government could intercept your birds in flight and read your notes.

Or instead of all of this paranoid stuff just realize that the FBI/CIA/NSA has much better things to do then spend all of there time spying on average Joe citizen. If you don't do anything to pop up on there radar then they will leave you alone and actually look at credible threats to the citizen of the USA and our allies.

Also take this post for what it is. And that is I'm really getting sick of all of this conspiracy theory stuff, and blowing off steam. I really shouldn't stray out of General discussion sometimes. Heck for most of it to be true the government would have to be bigger then the lumbering bureaucratic beast of the USSR.
You are right, as well. I'm sure that the time when we had any guarantee of real privacy passed a long long time ago. If someone wanted to track a person for some reason, they could do so any time; but they would have needed a reason to allocate resources to such a thing. It is not a plausible operation to carry out against 300 million people simultaneously, and countless millions elsewhere around the world.
 

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