Black Holes: Viable Scientific Theory? Or Voo-Doo Science?

  • Thread starter John MacNeil
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  • #1
[SOLVED] Black Holes: Viable Scientific Theory? Or Voo-Doo Science?

The "Black Hole" theory has been around for quite a while now and it is amazing that people still talk about it. When it is regarded with even a cursory objectivity it does not satisfy any scientific criteria that would enable it to be regarded seriously. And yet, people, many of them, discuss it in thread after thread and in many media. Why?

When you analyze the theory you are struck by the incongruity of it. When the "Black Hole" theory states that thousands, and in some cases millions, of star are condensed into a single dense mass that is so small that it is invisible, it is denying that matter has a fundamental size beyond which it cannot be compressed. If there is no fundamental size to matter, then there can be no construction.
 

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  • #2
Tyger
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It's no worse in that regard

than the Dark Matter/Missing Mass hypothesis. First proposed in the 50's by an observational astronomer to explain galactic rotation, no one seems to have seriously questioned it's validity even though tens of millions of dollars and much telescope time has been spent looking for it without success. In the meantime we've learned much about the variety of particles and forces at work in the world, but apparently not enough for people to see the possibility of other explainations than Dark Matter. A very simple statistical analyses will show that it is a very unlikely candidate (one might say the odds are astronomical) for galactic motion.

I would gladly nominate for the Nobel Prize the first person to write a paper refuting the Dark Matter Hypothesis. They would be doing Astrophysics a great service.
 
  • #3
Hurkyl
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The possibility of black holes is a simple deduction from two facts:

(a) Light has finite speed
(b) Light is affected by gravity

therefore one is naturally led to wonder if gravity can be sufficiently strong to keep light from getting away.

Mathematically, general relativity does not deny this possibility; there are solutions to the gravitational field equations that permit sufficiently dense masses to create a region of space-time from which light cannot escape.

They were regarded as a mathematical curiosity until evidence was discovered that they are real; for example, astronomers have found stars that have an orbit characteristic of a binary star system, but with no directly detectable companion star. Even better, such systems have been found where gas is being sucked away from the visible star to the spot where the companion should be, but no companion is detectable, and the swirling of the gas (and emitted x-ray jets) behave in a fashion consistent with that predicted of a black hole.


When the "Black Hole" theory states that thousands, and in some cases millions, of star are condensed into a single dense mass that is so small that it is invisible

That is only for so-called supermassive black holes, the kind thought to be in the centers of some galaxies. Some of these supermassive black holes are thought to have billions of solar masses. Behavior of the type seen at http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/active/smblack.html that is exactly what one would expect from such a thing.

However, many "observed" black holes are far more modest, such as the single-star black holes in the aforementioned binary systems.

General Relativity does not predict that black holes even need stellar quantities of mass; it permits objects of any mass to form a black hole, if it can be packed densely enough.



it is denying that matter has a fundamental size beyond which it cannot be compressed. If there is no fundamental size to matter, then there can be no construction.

The truth of your assertion that matter does indeed have a fundamental size beyond which it cannot be compressed is very much in doubt, but that is merely a side issue because:

"Black hole theory" does not deny your assertion. It only says that matter can be compressed a sufficient amount to prevent light from escaping. For stellar sized objects, the compression required for a black hole is well within the limits of general relativity's applicability.
 
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  • #4
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Tyger
...tens of millions of dollars and much telescope time has been spent looking for it without success....
Maybe you guys haven't been paying attention, but the Hubble has found a number of objects which can be nothing but black holes.

I won't go into it now, but Hurkyl did a good job.
 
  • #5
MrCaN
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Hurkly did a good job, but there is somehting that John is missunderstanding, the mass isn't compressed into a point so small that it can't be seen, infact naked singularities have been mathmaticlay proven, but not observed, the size of a singularity can be very very large. Another point is that Hawking radiation can be observed, and a black hole is the only way to creat Hawking radiation. I think were you went wrong John was looking to much at the language of ways that people attempted to explain black holes, objects such as these are hard to put into words, you need to look at the numbers to understand them.
 
  • #6
I agree with ALL the comments. Without being mean towards the author John, I find alot of instances here, and elsewhere, where people assert the validity/existance of something that has already been proven in many ways. Or better yet I should say they assume there's no evidence yet, when in fact there has been for some time.

Normally I'd first ask "Is anyone up to date on the current evidence on -----?"

One could blame the person for not doing research, which is what I usually do. However, There has yet to be properly funded attempts to truly unite the scientific community and keep them up to date on knowledge. It's sad but true.


I recently heard of a web database project bringing alot of "journal members only" material to the general public, particularly to people like me, college students wanting to keep up. Does anyone know the URL and name of that? Thanks all
 
  • #8
russ_watters
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Originally posted by MrCaN
I think were you went wrong John was looking to much at the language of ways that people attempted to explain black holes, objects such as these are hard to put into words, you need to look at the numbers to understand them.
If you're saying that essentially people simply don't understand what a black hole is, I agree. Most people have the idea that black holes "suck everything in" and allow nothing to escape (not even light), and are therefore completely undetectable.

But I don't think you need any math to understand why they are detectable - Stephen Hawkings' description in "A Brief History of Time" makes good sense to me. Their gravitational attraction alone is enough to validate the theory.
 
  • #9
There have been many thread which deal with the fantasy aspects of "Black Holes", so many that simply stating you believe in "Black Holes" because someone else said they exist has become a common defense. There is no good reason to go over that endless succession of repetitive platitudes. To engage in a discussion for the further advancement of your understanding, it is necessary to do the critical thinking for yourself. You can take the approach of someone like my friend from Sciforums, "Q", and deride discussion that doesn't conform to personal belief (at least that's mostly what "Q" contributed to Sciforums and I'd wager a similar contribution is "Q's" input to this forum) or you can engage in a discussion in which there is potential for a clearer understanding of reality.

My intent in starting this thread was not to partake in a joust, or to have to read inanities, nor to see some mensa weenie attempt to showcase their wit. The idea is to have an intelligent conversation that is both friendly and rewarding. To deviate from the logical progression that the discussion should take is, to me, a waste of time. So why bother?

To get to the thread topic, I'll make the observation that nothing can be constructed out of nothing. This clearly means that whatever the smallest particle of matter is, it definately has mass. If it has mass, it must occupy space. If it occupies space, then there is a compression limit beyond which it cannot be reduced. That is a simple but fundamental observation that precludes the possibility of infinite density.

No particle of matter can occupy two positions simultaneously. Therefore, if matter is condensed it must build on the heap of the matter that is at the bottom of the pile. If matter was to condense in such a fashion that it packed together so tightly that there were no spaces left between the particles of matter, then it could have no motion. Each individual particle would have to come to a complete stop because it would be completely encircled by other particles that would be just as tightly squeezed as all the other particles. If there is no motion, then there is no gravity. Gravity is not some force which has no source. It, the same as any other force, is dependant on the interaction between bodies.
 
  • #10
CJames
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Originally posted by John MacNeil
There have been many thread which deal with the fantasy aspects of "Black Holes", so many that simply stating you believe in "Black Holes" because someone else said they exist has become a common defense. There is no good reason to go over that endless succession of repetitive platitudes. To engage in a discussion for the further advancement of your understanding, it is necessary to do the critical thinking for yourself. You can take the approach of someone like my friend from Sciforums, "Q", and deride discussion that doesn't conform to personal belief (at least that's mostly what "Q" contributed to Sciforums and I'd wager a similar contribution is "Q's" input to this forum) or you can engage in a discussion in which there is potential for a clearer understanding of reality.
A very good point. Too many people on these boards forget they're trying to discuss something rather that prove they are correct.

My intent in starting this thread was not to partake in a joust, or to have to read inanities, nor to see some mensa weenie attempt to showcase their wit. The idea is to have an intelligent conversation that is both friendly and rewarding. To deviate from the logical progression that the discussion should take is, to me, a waste of time. So why bother?
mmm hm.

To get to the thread topic, I'll make the observation that nothing can be constructed out of nothing. This clearly means that whatever the smallest particle of matter is, it definately has mass. If it has mass, it must occupy space. If it occupies space, then there is a compression limit beyond which it cannot be reduced. That is a simple but fundamental observation that precludes the possibility of infinite density.
First, not all particles have mass. Photons, for example, have zero rest mass. That is beside the point, however, since black holes do have mass. However, you are incorrect in stating that something with mass need occupy space. That hasn't been proven, although string theory is pointing us in that direction. Still, a black hole is not said to be infinitely small or infinitely dense. That is the traditional view of the singularity, true, but not of the black hole itself. The traditional concept of the singularity, too, has little bearing on modern theory.

No particle of matter can occupy two positions simultaneously. Therefore, if matter is condensed it must build on the heap of the matter that is at the bottom of the pile. If matter was to condense in such a fashion that it packed together so tightly that there were no spaces left between the particles of matter, then it could have no motion. Each individual particle would have to come to a complete stop because it would be completely encircled by other particles that would be just as tightly squeezed as all the other particles. If there is no motion, then there is no gravity. Gravity is not some force which has no source. It, the same as any other force, is dependant on the interaction between bodies.
Gravity is the curvature of spacetime, which does not require motion.
 
  • #11
drag
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Originally posted by John MacNeil
No particle of matter can occupy two
positions simultaneously.
Ever heard of Quantum Mechanics ? :wink:
 
  • #12
(Q)
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You can take the approach of someone like my friend from Sciforums, "Q", and deride discussion that doesn't conform to personal belief (at least that's mostly what "Q" contributed to Sciforums and I'd wager a similar contribution is "Q's" input to this forum)

One only need read the thread I linked above to decide for themselves whose is a “personal belief,’” right John?

or you can engage in a discussion in which there is potential for a clearer understanding of reality.

I’m looking forward to once again hearing your version of reality. Have you dreamed up anymore fantasies since we last heard from you?
 
  • #13
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That is a simple but fundamental observation that precludes the possibility of infinite density.
Who said black holes had infinite density? Black holes simply require a radius at which V^2/ r = force of gravity requires a v greater than c, and r being larger than the radius of the object, hence implying that any light at a certain distance cannot form a stable orbit and must fall inwards. If you do the maths, you would find that the density required for such an occurance is far from infinite. The existence of a singularity within the blackhole, where the mass has collapsed to one point, is as a concept distinct to that of the black hole itself.
 
  • #14
Hurkyl
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To engage in a discussion for the further advancement of your understanding, it is necessary to do the critical thinking for yourself.

Allow me to be frank; nearly every time I've heard someone suggest to me that I do some critical thinking, the person who suggested it meant only that I apply critical thinking to my own beliefs, but that I should accept his assertions.

True critical thinking goes both ways; not only should you question your own beliefs, but you should also question what others would have you believe. (the latter is arguably far more important than the former)



When I see assertions that contardict what I think to be true, I do two things: I try to estimate the validity of the assertions, and I try to see how those assertions relate to what I think. When I try to convince someone else of something, I apply the same criterion to my own statements.

At the moment, your points fail to meet both of my criteria. You've made many assertions which I have no reason to believe, and you haven't even connected your assertions to black holes.


Among the other problems with your assertions, consider this: in classical mechanics (ala Newton gravitation) as matter collects together, the amount of mass in the object grows cubically in relation to the radius of the object, but the strength of surface gravity only dies off quadratically with radius. Even if you fixed the density of the object to be a constant, you could still make its surface gravity as strong as you like by simply throwing more mass onto the object.
 
  • #15
russ_watters
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Originally posted by John MacNeil
There have been many thread which deal with the fantasy aspects of "Black Holes"...
I would certainly agree that most people's understanding of black holes comes from fantasy and science fiction and thats why people get the science wrong - sorry to say, but YOU fall into that category. You really just need to read up on what black holes really are and how they work. And while you're at it, you seem to have trouble with gravity:
If there is no motion, then there is no gravity. Gravity is not some force which has no source. It, the same as any other force, is dependant on the interaction between bodies.
Einstein's relativity states that an object does indeed have a gravitational affect on the universe itself - no other object is needed. And on massless things like light, it has an effect without exerting a force.

Since the black hole prediction was derived from Relativity, you must first understand Relativity before you can understand black holes.

I highly recommend "A Brief History of Time." Its an excellent starting point for learning about the structure of the universe and the rules that govern it.
 
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  • #16
Writing a mathematical formula onto paper and then saying that formula is proof for a theory of "Black Holes" is not science. A mathematical formula can be written about anything and having a mathematical formula for the physical existence of a phenomena that is itself theoretical makes the mathematical formula theoretical. To claim the theoretical mathematical formula proves the theoretical "Black Hole" theory is without justification and is itself idle speculation that adds nothing to understanding.

Claiming that gravity is the curvature of spacetime is another example of reiterating tired cliches. The purpose of this thread is to examine the reality of "Black Holes", or the more likely impossibility of their existence. Whatever your view of spacial construction, you must have a basic understanding of matter in order to appreciate system construction. A system can only be the sum of it's parts. Gravity, the same as any force, must be the product of physical interaction at some point. It is not a magical force that "just exists". Gravity is the product of bodies in motion. There is no evidence in physics which suggests that there are physical bodies at rest.

All energy, whether it is percieved as having a physical form or whether it is perceived as a force, has mass. It must have mass for it to exist. Because we cannot differentiate between particle and force is no reason to suspect that force is anything other than the interaction of tiny particles at some level. Because the tiny particles of force behave in waves is a sure indication of their existence, since they have direct affect on other particles of their kind to ensure the extension of whatever field they are a part of. The sum total of our knowledge about force is from observance of effect. We know nothing of the construction of force if we are required to state it's physical construction. To state that we know what force is made of because we observe it's effects is a belief system and not a knowledge system.
 
  • #17
chroot
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Originally posted by John MacNeil
Writing a mathematical formula onto paper and then saying that formula is proof for a theory of "Black Holes" is not science.
A derivation is not a proof, you're right -- not all solutions to all equations are physical. On the other hand, should black holes actually exist, the mathematics can explain why.
Claiming that gravity is the curvature of spacetime is another example of reiterating tired cliches.
This claim is actually made by general relativity theory, a hugely successful theory both experimentally and theoretically. It makes a large number of very powerful predictions, most of which have now been verified very precisely.
Gravity is the product of bodies in motion.
Gravity actually seems to be the "product" of mass. No motion need be involved.
There is no evidence in physics which suggests that there are physical bodies at rest.
According to even Galiliean relativity, you can always choose a frame of reference so that any body you want is defined to be at rest.
All energy, whether it is percieved as having a physical form or whether it is perceived as a force, has mass.
Energy and mass are equivalent, yes.
Because we cannot differentiate between particle and force
Hmm... it certainly seems we can differentiate particles from forces.

Crackpot. :)

- Warren
 
  • #18
russ_watters
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Originally posted by John MacNeil
Writing a mathematical formula onto paper and then saying that formula is proof for a theory of "Black Holes" is not science. A mathematical formula can be written about anything and having a mathematical formula for the physical existence of a phenomena that is itself theoretical makes the mathematical formula theoretical. To claim the theoretical mathematical formula proves the theoretical "Black Hole" theory is without justification and is itself idle speculation that adds nothing to understanding.
Thats not a claim or idle speculation. Thats a PREDICTION - and it has been validated by later observation. No one here said that the mathematical proof is equivalent to physical proof. The physical proof is what validates the theory, not the other way around. There is ample physical proof to validate the theory.

Again, John, the problem here is that you simply don't understand (and won't listen to explanations of) the existing theories.

Crackpot. :)

- Warren
Its so hard to be sure. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt assume he is unable to understand the theories and evidence we are presenting. He just needs to sit down and read up on it.
 
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  • #19
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Russ

Its so hard to be sure. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt assume he is unable to understand the theories and evidence we are presenting. He just needs to sit down and read up on it.

He won’t understand it. Many of us have tried to get John to understand even the very basics of physics to no avail. John has his own brand of science where he makes up terms and theories not based on observation, evidence, or math but from his rather active imagination.

Of course, I invite all to attempt to reason with John, but if you don’t want to waste a whole lot of time, don’t bother. You can’t get through to him.

And if you really want to be sure that he is a bona fide crackpot, simply read some of his posts at Sciforums. Some of them are silly in the extreme.

Ask him about his theory on "Megastars."
 
  • #20
Good point to bring up, Q. It's not exactly on topic, but it is interesting astronomy. I'll post a reference to that megastar in a moment, but first I would like to say something about calling people crackpot and other derogatory descriptions. Professional science on this planet is a relatively new endeavor. Lifeforms on this planet have been evolving for perhaps billions of year, yet our organized society has been practicing a recognizable science for a mere few thousand year, if you count the origins of written language as a beginning to perceptional science. If we expect human society to live on this planet for perhaps millions of more year, then the science we practice today will be regarded as an adolescent science by the people who live thousands of year from now. To argue vehemently for one position now, and to exclude varient thought, would be negligent and not scientific. We don't have anywhere near all the answers, which is why things like "Black Holes" and "String Theory" are not proven and remain highly speculative. If you lock yourself into parroting the speculative view, then you can't be thinking critically for yourself. And if you denigrade people who do dare to think critically, and who are unafraid of ridicule when they speak what they believe, then you merely reflect on your own intelligencce by your ill chosen public stance.

Here's that link to a megastar which Q finds so improbable,

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/9911/ngc4881_hst_big.gif

When you look at this picture you see a bluish galaxy in the top right of the picture and you see a much larger object to the left of it. All, or most, of the other colored objects in the picture are galaxies. The large yellow object in the top left, which looks just like a sun, and is obviously much larger than the largest discernible galaxy, is not displaying any gravitational features that would indicate it was surrounded by orbital bodies. The bodies that appear to be orbiting the megastar are the surrounding galaxies themselves, exemplified by the bluish galaxy which is most recognizable.

Going through the APOD calendar you can find a number of other examples of objects which appear similar to the megastar in this picture and in each instance they appear to be surrounded by conventional galaxies. Nasa even makes a statement to that effect regarding megastar placement, although they misdiagnose the phenomena as "elliptical galaxies", a non-defining term that is used as a classification for lack of any more clarifying insight.
 
  • #21
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Going through the APOD calendar you can find a number of other examples of objects which appear similar to the megastar in this picture and in each instance they appear to be surrounded by conventional galaxies.
As opposed to? Surrounded by black holes? These are pictures of global clusters, which are defined as groups of galaxies. Galaxies are usually found in groups, and not on their own.
Nasa even makes a statement to that effect regarding megastar placement, although they misdiagnose the phenomena as "elliptical galaxies", a non-defining term that is used as a classification for lack of any more clarifying insight.
No. It's because of the fun fact that if you magnify, you find that these megastars have stars in them. Not all galaxies are spiral - indeed, some are irregular in shape.

Oh what delightful crackpotism.
 
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  • #22
chroot
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Ohhhh... so "elliptical galaxy" = "megastar...." Hummmm....

- Warren
 
  • #23
(Q)
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John

The large yellow object in the top left, which looks just like a sun, and is obviously much larger than the largest discernible galaxy, is not displaying any gravitational features that would indicate it was surrounded by orbital bodies.

And as I’ve told you countless times before, a beach looks like one solid entity from afar until you get up close and find its made up of bazillions of particles of sand.
 
  • #24
chroot
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Besides, stars don't look like that.

Stars don't have wispy edges that fade smoothly and slowly away. Stars have a surface, called the photosphere, which is very distinct -- it's the surface inside of which all the gas is ionized. Perhaps John has never actually compared this elliptical galaxy's appearance with that of the Sun.

- Warren
 
  • #25
If it has mass, it must occupy space.
John, this is an assumption you are making; one that I see no justification for. Why do you think this?

Furthermore, as was pointed out above, black holes could still exist given that above, assuming the space occupied was small enough. All that is required is that light is affected by gravity; there is ample evidence for this.
 
  • #26
Hurkyl
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"Black hole theory" has been around for quite a while now, and it is amazing that some people still argue against it. When their arguments are regarded with even a cursory objectivity, they do not satisfy any scientific criteria that would enable them to be regarded seriously. And yet, people continue to discuss it.

When you analyze the reasoning, you are struck by the incongruity of it. "Black hole theory" describes dozens, even hundreds of observations, and General Relativity (which permits black holes) has proven itself time and again to be the most accurate large scale theory known to man, yet people still reject these things outright. If there is no regard for observational confirmation, there can be no science.

There have been many threads which deal with pseudoscience, so many that simply stating you disbelieve in modern science in the name of "critical thought" has become a common defense. There is no good reason to go over that endless succession of repetitive platitudes. To engage in a discussion for the further advancement of your understanding, it is necessary to apply some critical thinking of yourself. You could take the approach of John MacNiel, and deride discussion that doesn't conform to personal belief, or you can engage in a discussion where there is the potential for a clearer understanding of reality. My intent in making this reply is not to partake in a joust, or to see some mensa weenie attempt to showcase his brilliant observations. The idea is to have an intelligent conversation that is both friendly and rewarding. To deviate from the logical progression that the discussion should take prevents such a conversation.

To get the thread back on topic, I'll ask you just how much you know about "black hole theory". Can you even somewhat accurately describe what modern science thinks a black hole is, or what it thinks matter is? If you do not understand what science says, how can you argue that it is incorrect? Can you provide any observational evidence for any of your arguments, or are you postulating from within a vacuum?

Saying a few paragraphs on a physics forum and then claiming to be enlightening your audience is not science. Paragraphs can be written about anything. To claim your assertions are true without any justification is idle speculation and detracts from understanding.

Claiming that "gravity is the curvature of spacetime" is a tired cliche is an example of the type of derogatory statements that detract from an intelligent understanding. The purpose of this thread was to example the reality of black holes, not some crackpots strawman version of science. Whatever your view of space-time, you must have a basic understanding of scientific theories to appreciate them and knowledge of experimental evidence to evaluate their validity. Reality behaves in precisely the way we observe it. Gravity, the same as any force, must behave as it is observed to behave, and it is observed to behave in a manner consistent with the effects of a curved space-time. There is no observational evidence which suggests this is not the case.


I would like to say something about those who reject modern science without justification. Professional science on this planet is a relatively new endeavor. Lifeforms on this planet have been evolving for perhaps billions of years, yet modern science has only been active a few hundred years, yet more scientific progress has been made in those few hundred years than in the rest of human history. If we expect human society to live on this planet for perhaps millions of more years, then we must continue to hone and perfect the science we practice today rather than abandon it for the wild speculation of yesteryear. To argue vehemently for one position now, and to exclude any opposing thought, would be negligent and not scientific. We don't have all the answers, but the ones we have are astonishingly accurate and informative. If you lock yourself into rejecting the established view, then you cannot be thinking critically for yourself. And if you degrade the people who dare accept modern science, and are unafraid to partake in discussion with those who are uninformed, then you merely reflect on your own crackpottery by your ill chosen public stance.
 
  • #27
russ_watters
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Originally posted by (Q)
Russ

Its so hard to be sure. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt assume he is unable to understand the theories and evidence we are presenting. He just needs to sit down and read up on it.

He won’t understand it. Many of us have tried to get John to understand even the very basics of physics to no avail. John has his own brand of science where he makes up terms and theories not based on observation, evidence, or math but from his rather active imagination.

Of course, I invite all to attempt to reason with John, but if you don’t want to waste a whole lot of time, don’t bother. You can’t get through to him.

And if you really want to be sure that he is a bona fide crackpot, simply read some of his posts at Sciforums. Some of them are silly in the extreme.

Ask him about his theory on "Megastars."
Yeah, you're probably right - I'm pumping a dry well here. But its entertaining.
 
  • #28
MrCaN
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John, I think your intent was good to create a discussion about black holes, I feel that you started from a poor angle, and made opening statements that were detremental to your want of a discussion. You can't expect to have a real discussion of black holes if you make bad assumtions on half truths and sci-fi data that you think you know. You keep making the argument that mass can't be crammed into a single point, well sorry to tell you that a black hole contains a singularity which is exactly what you say can't be. Know if you want we can through out math forulae that mathmaticaly prove singularities and black holes, and again you say that you can create math to show that anything is real, well I ask you to give us a mathmatic formula that disprove black holes. Just because you don't have all the data and jump to a conclusion that is way off base doesn't make it true, next time you want a discussion of a serious nature, I suggest doing some research into it, or expect people to not take you seriously.
 
  • #29
Here, I'll show you another example of spacial construction which appears to show galaxies orbiting a huge star,

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0104/hydra_aat116_big.jpg

It is so obvious that the large yellow objects in the picture are a completely different classification of object than the galaxies in the picture that I'm surprised that some serious people haven't joined the discussion about this. But to get this discussion going in some way, even if it is on a less intellectual level, I'll post a picture of a galaxy and you lot who have been exhibiting limited understanding can explain to me your view of what is at the center of it.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0305/m83_vlt_big.jpg

Now, to my mind, there are millions of star encompassed within this galaxy and many of them are sure to have planetary systems orbiting those stars which are very similar to our own and many of them are sure to be much larger systems than our solar system. That's just the law of averages. So you tell me what all this space material is orbiting in the center of that galaxy, if you don't believe it's a giant star, and then I will be able to discuss the subject with you on your level once I understand more fully what your comprehension level is.

Now I will address the only logical response to my last post. All forms of matter, whether it be in the form of recognizable energy as defined by quantum mechanics or whether it is in the form of a field, must occupy space if it exists. Because we cannot physically define a field such as gravity is merely due to the relative newness of our science. A hundred year ago atoms were yet to be discovered and weren't believed in by many people, and now we are investigating muons and so forth. If a gravitational field, or any other field, is having a direct physical attraction or rejection effect on any object, then at some point it must be in physical contact with that object. Fields are not some magical substance. They have to be created by some event and they have to have an association with matter at some point for them to have an origin.

Fields emanate from all matter, as far as we know. All matter is in motion. This is determined at it's molecular and lower levels. There are no instances of matter being at rest in nature, although from some of the responses to this thread I think some posters' minds are at rest.
 
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  • #30
chroot
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Originally posted by John MacNeil
It is so obvious that the large yellow objects in the picture are a completely different classification
In fact, they are. They are FOREGROUND STARS in our own galaxy. You can tell by the diffraction spikes. You seem to have no concept that the objects appearing in a single photograph can have radically different distances -- the foreground stars are probably less than 100 light-years away, while the galaxies are probably tens of millions of lights-years away.
explain to me your view of what is at the center of it.
Looks like a normal galactic nucleus -- lots of stars.
There are no instances of matter being at rest in nature
You can define a comoving frame of reference such that any object you wish is by definition at rest. This was true even in Galilean relativity.

- Warren
 
  • #31
Hurkyl
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Now I will address the only logical response to my last post.

If you want to discuss only logical responses, then maybe you shouldn't lace your posts with insults, eh?



Do you dispute this following statement?

Gravity affects light.
 
  • #32
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Here, I'll show you another example of spacial construction which appears to show galaxies orbiting a huge star,
How the hell do you propose to see an orbit out of 1 still image? Can you see into time or something? This picture shows galaxies in the visual vicinity of a large object. These objects are millions of light years apart. Just like a constellation, they may appear together, but that is no measure of the real distance. As as been said, diffraction spikes = lot closer than you think.

if you don't believe it's a giant star, and then I will be able to discuss the subject with you on your level once I understand more fully what your comprehension level is.
Let's take this on to another level. Do you know what stars are? Yes, giant fireballs, fusing hydrogen. The larger the star, the more hydrogen it is fusing, and the hotter it gets. Hardly rocket science, is it? Now, physical laws show us that as objects get hotter, their radiation changes towards the BLUE end of the spectrum. This has been confirmed by observation. Hence it is impossible for a humongous star to be orange. Hell, due to the high energy, it should be emitting gamma rays - it's just so hot. Well, does that look like it is blue? Or is planck's law vodoo science too?
Comprehendo?
 
  • #33
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Hurkyl
Do you dispute this following statement?

Gravity affects light.

That depends on what your definitions of gravity, light, and effects are. To me, gravity is a jelly donut, light is the sun, and to effect is to orbit.

So no. The sun does not orbit a jelly donut.
 
  • #34
So what are you guys trying to say? That diffraction spikes are an indicator of near distance, and so they can be used for scientific measurements and calculations? Did you people skip junior high school, or something? A diffraction spike occurs when rays of light are broken up into dark and light bands or into the colors of the spectrum and it is caused by the interference of one part of a beam with another. It has nothing to do with distance, it has to do with perspective.

And speaking of perspective, if you don't believe there is a giant star controlling the main gravity field from the center of every galaxy, then explain your idea of what is occurring there. Begin with a close one, if you like. What is the organization of the major bodies at the core of our galaxy? If you believe that it is "a normal galactic necleus--lots of stars", then post a reference to that or explain what it is so that we can understand what "a normal galactic necleus--lots of stars" acts like in their orbit. We know from observing our own solar system that there is a constructional order to bodies that orbit in space. Year after year we see the same star patterns in the night sky above us, so we know they follow predictable orbits as well. So it is only logical to deduce that there is a working system at the center of the galaxy, too. So what is the description of that working system?

We hear ad nauseum how "Black Holes" can scrunch a billion star down to the size of a basketball at some imaginary site so far away that we know we'll never get there to be able to get sucked into one. But when it comes to describing something that is close and practical like the galactic core, all the explanations are foggy and non-committal. There is no logic to the "Black Hole" theory and that is evidenced by the people who espouse it claiming that the laws of physics break down when you get sucked past the "event horizon" of a "Black Hole" and reach a spot where even light cannot escape. No one who thinks about that scenario for a little bit can believe that nonsense. Most people who espouse that view do so because other people espouse that view and they don't want to appear as if they "don't get it". So before you try to defend the cartoon theory of "Black Holes" further, take a shot at describing the movements of the bodies at the core of a galaxy.

And what's this theory about giant stars having to be blue? Here's a picture of giant stars as described by NASA. Hint...they're not blue,

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap990429.html

The notion that we can write down a mathematical equation and then state that the equation proves that stars in the universe can only be a certain size, is stupid reasoning. There has never been a mathematical formula that came before a theory, and there never will be. The more we get to see of space, the more we will get to understand what we are seeing and we are sure to continue to find ever larger constructions until we know exactly how the universe is put together. Here's a fine example of that learning curve,

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0001/gacluster_wfi_big.jpg

This is a picture of the great attractor that was taken four year ago. Near the center of the picture you see three large body that glow with a slightly greenish tinge and they form a rough triangle with each side approximately two inches. That is the heart of the Great Attractor system. Three inches away from that system, to the right and slightly below, is another similar triangular construction, which is on a slightly flatter plane, that has bodies which exhibit light on the same wave length as those in the heart of the Great Attractor. It can only be deduced that it is a system of similar construction. That indicates that large system construction in the universe is repetitive and proves that randomness is not a feature of spacial construction.
 
  • #35
Hurkyl
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Do you dispute the following statement?

Gravity affects light.
 

Suggested for: Black Holes: Viable Scientific Theory? Or Voo-Doo Science?

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