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jim hardy
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
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esp minutes 22 thru 25
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OmCheeto said:It depends on how many indicators are in front of your eyes.
A well trained operator would know which one to focus on. An operator with too little experience would be overwhelmed, IMHO.
NTSB: Intern confirmed bogus crew names in San Francisco crashBorek said:Another, slightly (un)related crash landing:
I'll save you a seat.nsaspook said:I'm going to hell for laughing at that.
Yup. Just a matter of time...Borg said:NTSB: Intern confirmed bogus crew names in San Francisco crash
Just too many interesting questions there. Who came up with the list? How did it get distributed to the media? Did the intern know it was a joke or was the intern just cluelessly confirming the names from the same press release? Can't wait for the congressional investigation for this one.
An Asiana statement said it's mulling legal measures against both KTVU-TV and the NTSB because the report "badly damaged" the reputation of the airline and its pilots.
SEOUL, July 14 (Yonhap) -- South Korea has sent a letter to the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) in protest to what it views as excessive disclosure of information linked to the ongoing investigation of the crash of Asiana Airlines Flight 214 in San Francisco, government sources said Sunday.
...
South Korea and the U.S. have been holding their own press conferences several hours apart, giving different impressions on their approach to the crash investigation. The U.S. investigators have made remarks hinting that the pilots might be responsible for the accident, while South Korea has countered the claims just hours later.
While the NTSB's final analysis will likely take a year or more to complete, preliminary information from the cockpit voice and flight data recorders and pilot interviews indicate that distractions and automation surprises appeared to cause the pilots to lose altitude and airspeed awareness.
“I don't know how the whole crew could take their eyes off the speed,” a 777 fleet captain for a major carrier tells Aviation Week. “One of the basic tenets of a stabilized approach is speed.”
nsaspook said:A bad story just got worse, The poor girl, I'm sorry but somebody should have checked her body for signs of life and moved her if she was dead before they foamed the plane and she was run over twice. The fact that she was still alive is heart breaking.
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us...a-airlines-crash-fire-fighters-helmet-cam.cnn
lisab said:I can't bring myself to watch that video, which is widely available on US news sites. Erm, I mean "news" sites, because is it really news? Watching a tragic accident that took a 16-year-old's life does not make me a more informed citizen.
Using this kind of "news" now day's gives them a chance to debate who's at fault. Go figure.lisab said:Erm, I mean "news" sites, because is it really news? Watching a tragic accident that took a 16-year-old's life does not make me a more informed citizen.
nsaspook said:Yes, it is news because if it happens in the future at SFO we might not have the evidence of it happening. To call it an accident IMO is much too nice term for the lack of following basic ERT procedures.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/after-airliner-crash-sf-chief-bans-helmet-cams
dlgoff said:Using this kind of "news" now day's gives them a chance to debate who's at fault. Go figure.
However, Asiana argued that the pilots and co-pilot believed the automatic throttle would keep the plane going fast enough to reach the runway — when in fact the auto throttle was effectively disengaged after the pilot idled it to correct an unexplained climb earlier in the landing.
nsaspook said:How about a sign in the windshield of each pilot that says
"Plane does not fly by its self, always monitor airspeed"
By midfield downwind, complete pre-landing checklist.
For Commercial, establish proper landing configuration.
- Gear down.
- Cowl flaps closed.
- Prop full forward (when manifold pressure below 15 in.)
Abeam touchdown point, add carb heat and reduce power.
Maintain altitude and level pitch attitude momentarily to dissipate airspeed.
Retrim aircraft to establish airspeed within flap operating range (white arc).
Lower flaps to 10 degrees.
Establish initial approach airspeed (1.4 Vso); retrim if necessary.
- Explain how airspeeds are arrived at (mfr.’s recommended airspeed, minimum airspeeds, and Vfe).
At 45-degree point from the landing threshold, clear for traffic and turn base.
Extend flaps and retrim if necessary to maintain approach airspeed; apply wind drift correction.
Lead turn to final to roll out on runway extended centerline.
Once the field is assured, extend final flaps.
Adjust pitch for desired airspeed and power for rate of descent.
Emphasize importance of monitoring airspeed.
76 Mar 31, 2014 Air Cruisers Submission
177 Mar 31, 2014 Asiana Airlines Accident Investigation Submissions
178 Mar 31, 2014 Asiana Airlines Submission Appendix A
179 Mar 31, 2014 Asiana Airlines Submission Appendix B
180 Mar 31, 2014 Asiana Airlines Submission Appendix C
181 Mar 31, 2014 Asiana Pilots Union Submission
182 Mar 31, 2014 Boeing Submission
183 Mar 31, 2014 Letter from KARAIB
Oh well, just let it crash? That really makes no sense. And no, the approach is not so fast that you don't have time to correct if something is wrong. That's kinda the whole point of a missed-approach procedure.AlephZero said:I can't give you a reference, but counter-intuitively, monitoring airspeed on final approach is usually NOT done, because (as in this incident) you don't have time to take any meaningful action if the airspeed is wrong. So diverting your attention away from monitoring other things to check the airspeed is counter productive.
What is "everything else"? There are really only three main issues to deal with continuously:If everything else about the approach is correct, the laws of physics mean the airspeed will also be correct. The problem here seems to be that nobody on the flight deck decided the entire approach was sufficiently FUBAR that the best decision would have been to go round and try again.
'Bad message'
Reprimanding Johnson "sent a bad message throughout the department that getting to the bottom of something, getting to the truth, may not always be to your benefit," Smith said.
Randle said Johnson was being disciplined for doing the right thing.
"The goal appeared to have been to punish him for bringing the video to the attention of the department, which would never have disclosed what had occurred had it not been for the video," Randle said. "This amounted to punishing Mark for being honest in turning in the video."
PROBABLE CAUSE
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew’s mismanagement of the airplane’s descent during the visual approach, the pilot flying’s unintended deactivation of automatic airspeed control, the flight crew’s inadequate monitoring of airspeed, and the flight crew’s delayed execution of a go-around after they became aware that the airplane was below acceptable glidepath and airspeed tolerances. Contributing to the accident were; (1) the complexities of the autothrottle and autopilot flight director systems that were inadequately described in Boeing’s documentation and Asiana’s pilot training, which increased the likelihood of mode error; (2) the flight crew’s nonstandard communication and coordination regarding the use of the autothrottle and autopilot flight director systems; (3) the pilot flying’s inadequate training on the planning and executing of visual approaches; (4) the pilot monitoring/instructor pilot’s inadequate supervision of the pilot flying; and (5) flight crew fatigue which likely degraded their performance.