Boeing Boeing Challenge

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RonL

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I'm a little surprised this has not been posted already, also because of constraints of the rules I'm putting it in mechanical engineering (mods are welcome to change it as they see fit) :smile:

https://herox.com/GoFly/guidelines

VISION
Remember when you were a child and wanted to fly?

We are going to make that dream a reality. We challenge you to make people to fly.

The GoFly Prize is a $2,000,000 challenge to create a personal flying device that is safe, useful, and thrilling.

The goal of the GoFly Prize is to foster the development of safe, quiet, ultra-compact, near-VTOL personal flying devices capable of flying twenty miles while carrying a single person.

What we are seeking is an “everyone” personal flying device, capable of being flown by ANYONE, ANYWHERE. It should be a device for ALL: young and old, city-dweller and country-dweller, expert and novice.


I am very interested, but the 80 pound maximum weight and 8.5 foot size, make for an almost unrealistic goal.
It will (IMO) require the best of the current control methods, in order to satisfy the novice requirement.
Look it over and let's see what some of our forum engineers have to say :cool:
 

anorlunda

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herox.com seems to be a crowdfunding site. It makes me suspicious. It lists several sponsors but no links to the sponsor sites. That makes me more suspicious.

How can you be sure this is legitimate?
Do you have a link to a Boeing site discussing this prize?
 

RonL

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herox.com seems to be a crowdfunding site. It makes me suspicious. It lists several sponsors but no links to the sponsor sites. That makes me more suspicious.

How can you be sure this is legitimate?
Do you have a link to a Boeing site discussing this prize?
I had not thought of that, but I did click on Boeing and came up with this......
http://goflyprize.com/
It seems to be legit as best as I can tell, but then I am pretty illiterate when it comes to computer software and tech. If anything is not correct I would appreciate being informed of what's wrong.
Thanks anorlunda :smile:
 

anorlunda

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I found the same link, but nothing from an official Boeing source.

Doesn't this also sound like a contest where some contestants might be killed during trials? If I were Bkeing, I wouldn't want my name associated with it.
 

RonL

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I found the same link, but nothing from an official Boeing source.

Doesn't this also sound like a contest where some contestants might be killed during trials? If I were Bkeing, I wouldn't want my name associated with it.
I found this.....
They do mention risk and anyone participating has to sign waivers.
 

RonL

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I believe this has been shown on PF in the past, but it shows how close things might be.
Make it lighter weight
Make it quieter (electric is almost possible)
Make it safe for a novice

 

RonL

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For sure we have examples of several small systems doing the job, it gets to the heart of sound abatement and a unique new method of fuel supply.
Batteries are progressing at an amazing pace, so my thoughts go mostly toward an in-flight method of generating electricity shielded from the most common resistance factors.
Another impressive invention.....for the deep pocket crowd.

 

anorlunda

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Batteries are progressing at an amazing pace, so my thoughts go mostly toward an in-flight method of generating electricity shielded from the most common resistance factors.
What does that mean?
 

anorlunda

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That Zapata Flyboard video is amazing. I have been trying to find more information. A google search for a peer reviewed paper failed. A search of patent applications failed. I find nothing that conforms to PF's normal rules of acceptable sources.

All the links I did find say that the nature of the "independent propulsion unit" are unknown.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2016/4/confirmed-franky-zapata-sets-new-farthest-hoverboard-flight-record-in-france-427011
says that they are satisfied, but Guinness is hardly James Randi.

Can anyone find an acceptable source giving details on the Zapata Flyboard?
 

RonL

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What does that mean?
I think it is close to the violation of PF rules and something that will win #4 prize.:smile:

4. One $100,000 prize for disruptive advancement of the state of the art.
 

RonL

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That Zapata Flyboard video is amazing. I have been trying to find more information. A google search for a peer reviewed paper failed. A search of patent applications failed. I find nothing that conforms to PF's normal rules of acceptable sources.

All the links I did find say that the nature of the "independent propulsion unit" are unknown.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2016/4/confirmed-franky-zapata-sets-new-farthest-hoverboard-flight-record-in-france-427011
says that they are satisfied, but Guinness is hardly James Randi.

Can anyone find an acceptable source giving details on the Zapata Flyboard?
The units on the flyboard look much smaller than these and somewhere in the past I seem to recall a written statement about the man on the board had the jet engines special built for a price of $50,000.00 each.

 

RonL

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RonL

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Please stop speaking in riddles.
I will do my best to try and correct that :smile:

The tone of the challenge is aimed at old people as well as novice operators, so the Zapata flyboard will likely not fit the intended goals.
A rather mundane and extremely stable product is what it seems is expected.
15 to 20 horsepower has been shown to produce successful results in the past and now present efforts of a few.
An all-up weight of about 300 pounds will be close to the minimum, 400 to 500 pounds will give much more purpose for a production machine.
 

berkeman

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will do my best to try and correct that :smile:
I think that he was referring to these words, which confused me as well...
generating electricity shielded from the most common resistance factors.
It's a fuel pack.
Franky Zapata: Yes, the thing I have on my back is like a Camelbak but it’s full of kerosene. Jet A1.
Yoiks. That's a tough tradeoff -- should I wear a zero-zero parachute, or a backpack full of fuel. Let see... o0)
 

RonL

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I think that he was referring to these words, which confused me as well...

"generating electricity shielded from the most common resistance factors".
My thoughts when I said this revolve around the act of straightway converting the generated electricity into heat that is used in the power unit. In other words eliminating the most common parts of a system of normal design, (gas engine, generator body, battery packs, controllers and a few others).

As for the 8.5 foot size, the thought occurred that this might have to do more with transportation requirements for most roads.
 
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RonL

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herox.com seems to be a crowdfunding site. It makes me suspicious. It lists several sponsors but no links to the sponsor sites. That makes me more suspicious.

How can you be sure this is legitimate?
Do you have a link to a Boeing site discussing this prize?
I have looked as best I know how and this is what I have concluded.
First the you tube video shows to be uploaded by a verified Boeing logo.
Second the man in the video seems to be Greg Hyslop.
Third is the Bio off of the Boeing website.

Executive Biography of Greg Hyslop, D.Sc.
http://www.boeing.com/company/bios/greg-hyslop.page

upload_2017-10-22_11-4-19.png



So unless someone else can show otherwise it seems legit to me.
 

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marcelo

The challenge requires a flying time of 20min and 10min reserves. Frank Zapata's flying board can fly for about 10min. I think it could be posible to triple the ammount of fuel in his backpack. Another objective is to get a sound level lower than 87 dB at 150 feet. I think the flyboard would have a really hard time with that as the turbojet engines he uses are very noisy.
 

marcelo

The challenge requires a flying time of 20min and 10min reserves. Frank Zapata's flying board can fly for about 10min. I think it could be posible to triple the ammount of fuel in his backpack. Another objective is to get a sound level lower than 87 dB at 150 feet. I think the flyboard would have a really hard time with that as the turbojet engines he uses are very noisy.
Also, in the videos, the flyboard always takes off and lands from an elevated platform. I looks like the little jet engines get into trouble if they take in the fumes it expels. This would violate the requirement to complete an aborted land intent.
 

marcelo

30 minutes flying time is a quite hard requirement for a compact man carrying drone. It could easily require about 50kW just to hover which means 25 kWh, and a battery weight of about 140kg (using 180Wh/kg batteries).
One effective way to reduce the power required to fly is to use wings that can easily produce the lift to hold the aircraft weight and just need to overcome the drag which can be as low as 10 times lower than the weigth. The challenge here, I think, is to design a good enough wing with a span less that the maximum 8.5 feet required
 

RonL

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30 minutes flying time is a quite hard requirement for a compact man carrying drone. It could easily require about 50kW just to hover which means 25 kWh, and a battery weight of about 140kg (using 180Wh/kg batteries).
One effective way to reduce the power required to fly is to use wings that can easily produce the lift to hold the aircraft weight and just need to overcome the drag which can be as low as 10 times lower than the weigth. The challenge here, I think, is to design a good enough wing with a span less that the maximum 8.5 feet required
Welcome to PF :smile: I hope your power requirements are too high, but I would hate to be up in the air and being blown way off course and not have power to overcome the unexpected conditions (whatever they might be).
The old Hillier design is interesting especially with modern day control technology.

 

marcelo

Thanks RonL

Yes, the Hiller flying platform would be a very efficient design in hover mode, maybe 40kW would be enough with its big twin coaxial propellers, still too much for batteries I think, and quite slow, unless you manage to transition to horizontal fly using the duct as a circular wing, in which case you could have a very efficient vtol and a very efficient cruise mode
 

RonL

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Thanks RonL

Yes, the Hiller flying platform would be a very efficient design in hover mode, maybe 40kW would be enough with its big twin coaxial propellers, still too much for batteries I think, and quite slow, unless you manage to transition to horizontal fly using the duct as a circular wing, in which case you could have a very efficient vtol and a very efficient cruise mode
In my mind the big challenge is "safe for the novice", I see so many things being done at the present time that are working, but have such short power duration, the bottleneck is definitely the battery storage.
Will anything that becomes as simple and convenient as a bicycle ever fit into FAA regulations ? I don't really think so. :frown:

However, thinking about this challenge is fun in my mind and I see the duct ring as a necessary item for a number of reasons, first is an item that makes energy looping more convenient and second a way to enclose the rotors with some form of safety wire mesh. (something like a typical home style fan)
 

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