News Bombs in London

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siddharth said:
I thought that the national dish in UK is now
Chicken Tikka Masala
I think you are correct here, everybody I knows loves this dish, none more than myself .
 
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The IRA had a specific agenda which I could understand
From what I understand the agenda of Al-queda is for the "West" to remove its self from ME and stop meddeling in thier afairs. I think a big step in remove these fundamentalist would be for Israel to retreat out of Palistine areas and for the US to stop supporting them, it is seen as totally two faced in the Arab nations.. I can understand this. But I dont condon Terror attacks, but we are at War right now, so it was to be expected, right?

Britain can be seen as a tolerant, multi-cultural society, but we have been at war somewhere on this planet almost continually for the last 1000 years and we're pretty damn good at it.
I aggee I would not like to be on a SAS hit list. The SAS are very good at combating Terrorism, and are sneeky as hell... Quietly "removing" key people in terrorist organisations, and we normal civies will know nothing about it...
 
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Maybe it's the case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'?

Many of the 'insurgents' have a ligitmate claim against Britain and America for invading their country (I won't insult them by using the word 'liberation' as there have been too many civilian casulties). The stratagy they are using is exactly the same one we would use if we were facing a force of superior numbers. It's also the same one our special forces use to disrupt enemy logistics etc.

The trouble is 'other' groups, that are maybe fanatically religious oriented, brainwashed, jealous, vengence for a past invasion, political idologies etc, may join them because America has now presented them with an easy target. 100,000+ troops, many of which are ill-disciplined and inadequately trained/experienced for such a war, all in what Sun-Tzu calls the 'Death Ground'.

p.s. Chicken Tikka Masala is ok but it doesn't come close to touching a decent portion of fish and chips :rolleyes:
 
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p.s. Chicken Tikka Masala is ok but it doesn't come close to touching a decent portion of fish and chips
true, but vindaloo kicks fish and chips ass, but nothing beat a good donner chips n cheese after a night out :rofl:
 
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but vindaloo kicks fish and chips ass, but nothing beat a good donner chips n cheese after a night out
You're sick mister :(
 
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we in europe suppose to pay 2 minutes of silence at noon time as a respect to all victims of london bombings, i almost did so but then i said to myself if we paid even one second of respect to the hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded iraqi people i would not do so. never.
 
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Anttech said:
From what I understand the agenda of Al-queda is for the "West" to remove its self from ME and stop meddeling in thier afairs. I think a big step in remove these fundamentalist would be for Israel to retreat out of Palistine areas and for the US to stop supporting them, it is seen as totally two faced in the Arab nations.. I can understand this. But I dont condon Terror attacks, but we are at War right now, so it was to be expected, right?
I think you have to draw a line between politically-motivated criminals such as Bin Laden (or the IRA for that matter) and religiously-motivated cult-like groups that were probably responsible for London attack. For the latter, Western involvement in the Middle East and the Iraq war in particular are an excuse , not a reason. Sure, with no such excuses we might not have seen such attrocities, but nevertheless I don't think we're looking at politically-minded people here. The cause of Al-Qaeda has attracted many self-sufficient cells, all no doubt led by opportunistic extremists, and the methods of Al-Qaeda are an education for how these cells should work. It would be foolish to believe that these people share the same motives. I'd look more to the East and certain other groups targetting certain other subway systems for an idea of the kind of mentality and motives these people have, and the methods of recruitment that result in British citizens murdering other British citizens.
 
stoned said:
we in europe suppose to pay 2 minutes at noon time of respect to all victims of london bombings, i almost did so but then i said to myself if we paid even one second of respect to the hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded iraqi people i would not do so. never.
I dig your point. The 2 minute silence for this seems even more focussed than that for the victims of the tsunami. It is hypocritical that if a load of people die in North America or Europe we are expected to 'meditate' on it, and yet thousands of people die or are severly ill each year in Vietnam due to agent orange poisoning. However, I don't think the lack of organisation of such tragedies the world over warrants not paying my respects as fully as possible in these cases. I just accept that I must pay my respects for those people society does not deem worthy of it on my own, and whenever and however I see fit.
 
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El Hombre Invisible, I see your point... Yet these people wouldnt do these things if our politics towards ME changed, would they? Perhaps you would have total nutters that will insist on killing people in the name of islam, but the sain sympathiser would not encourage this behavour (terrorism) and just like in Ireland the Terrorism would be force to stop, by lack of funding etc
 

Hurkyl

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(I won't insult them by using the word 'liberation' as there have been too many civilian casulties)
Because, of course, liberations don't involve civilian casualties. :rolleyes:

It's not like the French suffered 60,000+ civilian casualties from allied bombing alone, or the National Liberation Front killed 70,000 during Algeria's War of Independence...


The stratagy they are using is exactly the same one we would use if we were facing a force of superior numbers.
I don't think the U.S. would turn to blowing up American citizens if we were facing a force of superior numbers. Coalition troops don't even appear to be the primary target of insurgent attacks: Iraq's own police and military forces are. Recent on the hit-list are diplomats from Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Pakistan, and Bahrain!

You're deluding yourself if you think the insurgency is a guerilla war against American troops.
 
Hurkyl said:
Because, of course, liberations don't involve civilian casualties. :rolleyes:

It's not like the French suffered 60,000+ civilian casualties from allied bombing alone, or the National Liberation Front killed 70,000 during Algeria's War of Independence...




I don't think the U.S. would turn to blowing up American citizens if we were facing a force of superior numbers. Coalition troops don't even appear to be the primary target of insurgent attacks: Iraq's own police and military forces are. Recent on the hit-list are diplomats from Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Pakistan, and Bahrain!

You're deluding yourself if you think the insurgency is a guerilla war against American troops.
You are forgetting something.

Bin Laden only threatened to bankrupt the USA.

As long as the USA stays occupying Iraq, they are spending about 1/4 of a billion dollars a day.

So ... they hit the locals who would replace them; the people they consider collaberators.

This keeps the USA constantly there with no hope of leaving thus performing the second task of demoralization.

Bush is already under seige in office now and moving towards being more of a lame duck than ever.

Dissention is happening in the ranks and the administration is having to 'explain' itself more and more.

Do you think that is just an old guy in a cave who doesn't think too much about what he's doing? :surprised
 

russ_watters

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The Smoking Man said:
You are forgetting something.

Bin Laden only threatened to bankrupt the USA.
Not true at all. Read his "open letter to the west". I sourced it in another thread recently (possibly this one) where someone else made a similarly erroneous statement.
 
No. they are barbarian radicals, islamist extremist figthers who olny want to kill civilians becouse they hate fredom.
Anything else should be a consecuence of the previous sentence.....
:rofl:
 
russ_watters said:
Not true at all. Read his "open letter to the west". I sourced it in another thread recently (possibly this one) where someone else made a similarly erroneous statement.
Well, I've got this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1265582/posts
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200411/ai_n8599755

Full Letter

Exerpt:
bin Laden said:
"As previously mentioned, it was easy for us to provoke this administration and to drag it [after us]. It was enough for us to send two Jihad fighters to the farthest east to hoist a rag on which 'Al-Qa'ida' was written - that was enough to cause generals to rush off to this place, thereby causing America human and financial and political losses, without it accomplishing anything worthy of mention, apart from giving business to [the generals'] private corporations. Besides, we gained experience in guerilla warfare and in conducting a war of attrition in our fight with the iniquitous, great power, that is, when we conducted a war of attrition against Russia with Jihad fighters for 10 years until they went bankrupt, with Allah's grace; as a result, they were forced to withdraw in defeat, all praise and thanks to Allah. We are continuing in the same policy - to make America bleed profusely to the point of bankruptcy, Allah willing. And that is not too difficult for Allah.

"Whoever says that Al-Qa'ida triumphed over the White House administration, or that the White House administration lost this war - this is not entirely accurate, for if we look carefully at the results, it is impossible to say that Al-Qa'ida is the only cause for these amazing gains. The White House policy, which strove to open war fronts so as to give business to their various corporations - be they in the field of armament, of oil, or of construction - also helped in accomplishing these astonishing achievements for Al-Qa'ida. It appeared to some analysts and diplomats as though we and the White House play as one team to score a goal against the United States of America, even though our intentions differ. Such ideas, and some others, were pointed out by a British diplomat in the course of a lecture at the Royal Institute for International Affairs; for example, that Al-Qa'ida spent $500,000 on the event [9/11] while America lost in the event and its subsequent effects more than 500 billion dollars; that is to say that each of Al-Qa'ida's dollars defeated one million American dollars, thanks to Allah's grace. This is in addition to the fact that America lost a large number of jobs, and as for the [federal] deficit, it lost a record number estimated at a trillion dollars.

"Even more serious for America is the fact that the Jihad fighters have recently forced Bush to resort to an emergency budget in order to continue the fighting in Afghanistan and in Iraq, which proves the success of the plan of bleeding [America] to the point of bankruptcy, Allah willing.

"Indeed, all of this makes it clear that Al-Qa'ida won gains; but on the other hand, it also makes it clear that the Bush administration won gains as well, since anyone who looks at the scope of the contracts won by large dubious corporations like Halliburton and other similar ones that have ties to Bush and to his administration will become convinced that the losing side is in fact you, the American people, and your economy.
In other words, he sees the presence in Iraq as a drain on your economy and that it is Bush who is complicit in this mess when he allows Halliburton to criminally overbill the government ... all the time awarding new contracts to them.
 
Anttech said:
El Hombre Invisible, I see your point... Yet these people wouldnt do these things if our politics towards ME changed, would they? Perhaps you would have total nutters that will insist on killing people in the name of islam, but the sain sympathiser would not encourage this behavour (terrorism) and just like in Ireland the Terrorism would be force to stop, by lack of funding etc
One would have hoped that, had the Western presence in the Middle East not already provoked terrorist action by Al Qaeda, then terrorism as a default MO for more such groups would not have occurred. The problem is, now the ball is rolling, even if we gave in and pulled out of the Middle East (occupation of Iraq, the Israel-Palestine peace process, et al) I fear we would not see the end of such attacks by short-term, arbitrarily-motived groups. And funding, I should think, would not be an issue. Where groups like this come together due to a common "re-education" by brainwashers who preach the need for terrorist action but don't get their hands dirty themselves, you've essentially got a fast-sprouting, short-lived, self-funded unit that will either act or not. Once it is done, that group is basically over and done with, either dead (by choice or by accident), arrested, or otherwise without the means (such as funds, like you said) or inclination to act again, and it is time for a new group to spring up. That way you can have one long-term instigator who doesn't spend a penny or get involved directly, and many different groups. The power of religion...
 
The Smoking Man said:
Well, I've got this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1265582/posts
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200411/ai_n8599755

Full Letter

In other words, he sees the presence in Iraq as a drain on your economy and that it is Bush who is complicit in this mess when he allows Halliburton to criminally overbill the government ... all the time awarding new contracts to them.
Carlyle's Way Red Herring Business Magazine
Like everyone else in the United States, the group stood transfixed as the events of September 11 unfolded. Present were former secretary of defense Frank Carlucci, former secretary of state James Baker III, and representatives of the bin Laden family. This was not some underground presidential bunker or Central Intelligence Agency interrogation room. It was the Ritz-Carlton in Washington, D.C., the plush setting for the annual investor conference of one of the most powerful, well-connected, and secretive companies in the world: the Carlyle Group. And since September 11, this little-known company has become unexpectedly important...

And as the Carlyle investors watched the World Trade towers go down, the group's prospects went up. In running what its own marketing literature spookily calls "a vast, interlocking, global network of businesses and investment professionals" that operates within the so-called iron triangle of industry, government, and the military, the Carlyle Group leaves itself open to any number of conflicts of interest and stunning ironies. For example, it is hard to ignore the fact that Osama bin Laden's family members, who renounced their son ten years ago, stood to gain financially from the war being waged against him until late October, when public criticism of the relationship forced them to liquidate their holdings in the firm. Or consider that U.S. president George W. Bush is in a position to make budgetary decisions that could pad his father's bank account. But for the Carlyle Group, walking that narrow line is the art of doing business at the murky intersection of Washington politics, national security, and private capital; mastering it has enabled the group to amass $12 billion in funds under management.
 
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Hurkyl said:
Because, of course, liberations don't involve civilian casualties. :rolleyes:

It's not like the French suffered 60,000+ civilian casualties from allied bombing alone, or the National Liberation Front killed 70,000 during Algeria's War of Independence...

I don't think the U.S. would turn to blowing up American citizens if we were facing a force of superior numbers. Coalition troops don't even appear to be the primary target of insurgent attacks: Iraq's own police and military forces are. Recent on the hit-list are diplomats from Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Pakistan, and Bahrain!

You're deluding yourself if you think the insurgency is a guerilla war against American troops.
I don't know if you're just being deliberately arguementitive or you actually mean what you say :confused:

Firstly, the comment you first quoted was aimed at the original 'invasion' had nothing to do with 'liberation' but illusive WMD, secondly the inability of many american soldiers to distinguish who the enemy is has resulted in many non-combatives dead. This has nothing to do with the iraqi people directly and everything to do with the enforcement of western policies.

Western policies may ultimately be good for the people of Iraq...or they may cause the ME to spiral into civil war for many years resulting in thousands of deaths, poverty and disease...

Only history will answer that one.

As for:

"I don't think the U.S. would turn to blowing up American citizens if we were facing a force of superior numbers"

U.S. = murder capital of the world

That's beside the point. If say, China had invaded Britain, home defence stratergies would include small groups of military and civilians blowing them up left, right and center, poisoning water supplies, sabotaging equipment etc, etc. If some British were working with kthe Chinese they might be considered traitors and be viewed as legitimate targets etc etc
 
"I don't think the U.S. would turn to blowing up American citizens if we were facing a force of superior numbers"

Yes if they where colaborating with the enemy force..
Anyway america did kill foreing civilians when they drop the atomic bombs over civilian areas. becouse if not they would be a lot of more casualtys!
I don't wan't to think what they are capable of if they are facing a force of superior numbers....
 

russ_watters

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Burnsys said:
No. they are barbarian radicals, islamist extremist figthers who olny want to kill civilians becouse they hate fredom.
Getting warmer...

....ahh, yes, I did post it earlier in this thread. How soon we forget: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

Paraphrasing, he wants us to:

1. Embrace Islam
2. Give up our way of life (embracing Islam would also require that).
3. Examine ourselves honestly (the way he does :rolleyes: )
4. Stop supporting anyone who opposes forces that are Islamic, anywhere. that includes Israel, Russia (against the Chechens), Manilla, etc.
5. "...get out of our lands."
6. Do not interfere with our internal politics. (he doesn't specify who "our" is)
7. Treat us as equals. (again, he doesn't specify who "us" is)

And if we don't comply:
If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation.... Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands.
That means killing all who don't comply. This isn't simply a fight against the US government, our way of life itself is the enemy of Bin Laden.
 
russ_watters said:
Getting warmer...

....ahh, yes, I did post it earlier in this thread. How soon we forget: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

Paraphrasing, he wants us to:

1. Embrace Islam
2. Give up our way of life (embracing Islam would also require that).
3. Examine ourselves honestly (the way he does :rolleyes: )
4. Stop supporting anyone who opposes forces that are Islamic, anywhere. that includes Israel, Russia (against the Chechens), Manilla, etc.
5. "...get out of our lands."
6. Do not interfere with our internal politics. (he doesn't specify who "our" is)
7. Treat us as equals. (again, he doesn't specify who "us" is)

And if we don't comply: That means killing all who don't comply. This isn't simply a fight against the US government, our way of life itself is the enemy of Bin Laden.

Di you get that seven points from that link??????? wtf!

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.
---------------------------------------
etc. etc.

Of course, you use some of their fanatism in religion to automaticaly dismis any real motive the us has give them to atack you...Some of them beign fanatical extremist does not automaticaly make all of them like that (i am not refering to muslims but to resistance figthers, insurgents the way you want to call them), and doesn't make US atrocities disapear.... Don't forget America is giving weapons and money to a dictator in ubekistan who boils his people alive, when the sons of this boiled people will start putting bombs in america, are you going to call them fanatical extremist to?
 
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El Hombre Invisible, with your reasoning you would conclude that there is no hope... I think there is, Islam aint all bad, really... I do believe that there will be an uprising inside Islam which is anti-terror, these people will quash this barbaric behavior... But for these people to actually be listened to we (the west) need to pull out of the ME, and stop medeling Costra Nostra style, each to mind there own buisness... If this happens then Peace loving Muslums will not have a counter arguement to removing the radicals from their people
 
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Burnsys--> give that man a cigar !

Well said...
 

russ_watters

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Burnsys said:
Of course, you use some of their fanatism in religion to automaticaly dismis any real motive the us has give them to atack you...
That does not affect how wrong your previous statement was. Yes, they have reasons for what they do (who doesn't?) - that doesn't change the fact that the goal is to destroy our way of life.
 
russ_watters said:
That does not affect how wrong your previous statement was. Yes, they have reasons for what they do (who doesn't?) - that doesn't change the fact that the goal is to destroy our way of life.
Ok russ go to ubekistan and try a little of the American WAY OF LIFE!
 

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