Breivik - Who made him do it?

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  • #26
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Ok, then he is not so clearly insane. But, insane in-deed.
 
  • #27
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Oh and this is from Breviks lawyer.

Breivik sees himself as a warrior and savior of the Western world, and is likely insane.
Anyway, you can do your own armchair psychoanalysis.
 
  • #28
Drakkith
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Ok, then he is not so clearly insane. But, insane in-deed.
From wikipedia on Insanity:

Insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including becoming a danger to themselves and others, though not all such acts are considered insanity.
Also:

Most courts accept a major mental illness such as psychosis but will not accept the diagnosis of a personality disorder for the purposes of an insanity defense. The second question is whether the mental illness interfered with the defendant's ability to distinguish right from wrong. That is, did the defendant know that the alleged behavior was against the law at the time the offense was committed.
He knew it was illegal. He knew how to tell right from wrong in a legal sense. He had full control over himself. He is not insane in the slightest.

Oh and this is from Breviks lawyer.

Breivik sees himself as a warrior and savior of the Western world, and is likely insane.

Anyway, you can do your own armchair psychoanalysis.
Doesn't matter how he sees himself in my opinion. If you can understand the difference between right and wrong in a legal sense, and you have control over yourself, then you are not insane. (All in my own opinion of course)
 
  • #29
Evo
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Funny, murderers in the US *want* to be found insane and incompetant to stand trial so they can go to a hospital instead of prison.

Things are either so alien in Norway that it's hard for people in the West to comprehend, or this guy has some really bizarre notions. A psychiatrist from another country is not going to matter as far as the opinion that the world has about him. I guess I would need to read more about what he thinks the advantage to him would be.
 
  • #30
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It seems that Norway is very different from the USA.
 
  • #31
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This man is not insane in the slightest... and he would not want to be declared insane. He wants publicity in order to highlight his 'revolution' against Islam. If he gets declared insane, it undermines his position (slightly, the type of people that will listen to him and follow won't probably care) but it'll limit the amount of time he has in the spotlight.

If it's a full trial he has time to give speeches etc. etc.. AFAIK though the police are moving to get the judge in making the trial not public? Have the succeeded? I hope so.

I'm not entirely sure why people are jumping the gun to declare he's insane but anyways if any persons on this forum would like to argue that he IS mentally ill then by all means go ahead. You can use any level of disease but they have to be medically valid. Saying "clearly he's batgarbage crazy he shot kids" isn't going to work, I don't know of any mental illness which causes specifically people to shoot kids and blow up buildings, but I do know that many people are capable of these things being perfectly sane.

If you don't know what types of mental illness there are try looking up the "DSM" (APA) or "ICD-10" (WHO) You will find a comprehensive list of all of what is considered to be a mental disorder. Then take this definition and apply it to the case on why the disease would be severe enough to exclude him from a trial.

As a side note, I'm not definitive that this man is not mentally ill but from what I've read and relative to my studies I will say based on that I do not think he is insane.

Also, give it up with this ridiculous notion that he's going to be living in luxury. Have you talked to the judges Evo? Somehow convinced them to give you an opinion on what they'll do to him once they find him guilty. Good to know.
 
  • #32
apeiron
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Also, give it up with this ridiculous notion that he's going to be living in luxury. Have you talked to the judges Evo? Somehow convinced them to give you an opinion on what they'll do to him once they find him guilty. Good to know.
In fact, it is true that Norwegian prisons would seem luxurious in contrast to the US. But that is another sign that Norway is about the world's most enlightened nation (it helps they have all that oil money, but they use it wisely).

The US is a famously punitive society. It is not a "Western" nation if you check its incarceration rates. It beats off Rwanda and Russia to be the biggest locker-upper by a country mile.

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate

Here anyway is a comment on prison conditions comparing the two countries.

COMMENTING on a shared link to a Time slideshow offering a tour of Norway's Halden prison, the "world's most human prison", one of my Facebook friends says, "If you prefer comfort to liberty, go to Norway and commit murder. You could get 21 years in what looks like a nice dorm." A good number of Americans, it seems, are agitated by the possibility that Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian mass-murderer who gunned down scores of kids at an isolated summer camp, might end up at such a luxe detention facility. In this segment on Norway's "heavenly prison", the folks at Fox News seem sort of boggled by the idea that prisons might be anything other than the squalid overcrowded rape pens where human offal in America is sent to fester out of sight.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/demo...=3&fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/plushandunuslapunishment
 
  • #33
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Many of you are steadfast that this man is not insane. I did not believe that too at the beginning of this thread, but now I think he is.

If he isn't insane what is he? Another unibomber?
 
  • #34
apeiron
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If he isn't insane what is he? Another unibomber?
I didn't know this about the Unabomber!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski

He also participated in a multiple-year personality study conducted by Dr. Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews.[10] Students in Murray's study were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student.[11] Instead they were subjected to a "purposely brutalizing psychological experiment"[11] stress test, which was an extremely stressful, personal, and prolonged psychological attack. During the test, students were taken into a room, strapped into a chair and connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions, while facing bright lights and a two-way mirror. Each student had previously written an essay detailing their personal beliefs and aspirations: the essays were turned over to an anonymous attorney, who would enter the room and individually belittle each strapped-down student based in part on the disclosures they had made. This was filmed, and students' expressions of impotent rage were played back to them several times later in the study. According to author Alston Chase, Kaczynski's records from that period suggest he was emotionally stable when the study began. Kaczynski's lawyers attributed some of his emotional instability and dislike of mind control to his participation in this study.[11][12] Indeed, some have suggested that this experience may have been instrumental in Kaczynski's future actions.[13]
When it comes to insanity, yes, you can wonder about societies.

Kaczynski sounds lucid enough in this comment...

When asked if he was afraid of losing his mind in prison, Kaczynski replied:
No, what worries me is that I might in a sense adapt to this environment and come to be comfortable here and not resent it anymore. And I am afraid that as the years go by that I may forget, I may begin to lose my memories of the mountains and the woods and that's what really worries me, that I might lose those memories, and lose that sense of contact with wild nature in general. But I am not afraid they are going to break my spirit.
 
  • #35
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Many of you are steadfast that this man is not insane. I did not believe that too at the beginning of this thread, but now I think he is.

If he isn't insane what is he? Another unibomber?
Well I've told yo two sources, go through them they are available with many, many definitions.

YOU say that you 'think he is' insane... what exactly makes you think this? You just have a hunch? Obviously something has convinced you to change your mind (as you state in the quoted post) so just explain that to me.

All ears... well eyes.
 
  • #36
Drakkith
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Many of you are steadfast that this man is not insane. I did not believe that too at the beginning of this thread, but now I think he is.

If he isn't insane what is he? Another unibomber?
Do you think that someone must be insane to commit horrible acts? ANYONE can do terrible things if they convince themselves that it is the RIGHT decision. If my neighbor is known to be abusing his children does that give me the right to murder him? No! Is it the right thing to do? I bet many would say yes.
 
  • #37
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Some folks seem to have an idea that either your brain is healthy and works fully well, or then it is not healthy and doesn't work at all. Of course that's not the way it is. A medical condition can affect some brain functions, and leave others untouched.

If somebody is intelligent in a sense that he can plan and operate rationally, but still has serious problems in feeling empathy and estimating ethics, could the person be called insane? Whatever, I'm not interested in debating the meaning of this word myself.

My opinion: Breivik should be put into an MRI scanner before other more delicate examination. No speculation could replace the act of actually looking into his head and finding out the physical situation of his brains.
 
  • #38
Ryan_m_b
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Unless he has strong evidence of a physical cause of insanity (i.e. brain damage) I will be surprised if he is found psychologically insane on the basis of what I know about the case. I say this because I can't help thinking that if he had claimed that he was doing it for God aside from a brief check for schizophrenia people would not be discussing if he was insane and just accept that he was severely misguided.
 
  • #39
Evo
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Also, give it up with this ridiculous notion that he's going to be living in luxury. Have you talked to the judges Evo? Somehow convinced them to give you an opinion on what they'll do to him once they find him guilty. Good to know.
Have you missed all of the discussions on Norwegian law? The punishment for this crime is 21 years in a nice dorm where inmates play games with the unarmed female "guards", taking cooking classes and playing bongos in their living room, looking out large unbarred windows into a gorgeous 75 acre wood where they are allowed to run around and have fun.

Sounds like hell.

You might want to actually read about the Norwegian penal system before you make such comments.
 
  • #40
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Well I've told yo two sources, go through them they are available with many, many definitions.
I'm not qualified to use the DSM as a source and state things.

YOU say that you 'think he is' insane... what exactly makes you think this? You just have a hunch? Obviously something has convinced you to change your mind (as you state in the quoted post) so just explain that to me.
Well, at first I thought he was radicalised by some group of people. But, since there was no evidence supporting this claim... I thought he just went nuts. Loony, you know?

Can someone tell us. Does insanity necessarily imply that a person is not aware of his or her actions?
 
  • #41
Ryan_m_b
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I'm not qualified to use the DSM as a source and state things.

Well, at first I thought he was radicalised by some group of people. But, since there was no evidence supporting this claim... I thought he just went nuts. Loony, you know?

Can someone tell us. Does insanity necessarily imply that a person is not aware of his or her actions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity#In_medicine" means it better to address them specifically. In answer to your questions some mental disorders result in the patient unaware of their actions, in other cases their rational faculty is degraded so that whilst they are aware of their actions the don't really comprehend the significance of what they are doing.

Also note that whilst some definitions of mental disorder is to have a psychology far outside of the societal norm fervent ideological beliefs are not necessarily classed as mental disorders.

*It is however still a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity_defense" [Broken] that simply means that the defendant has a mental disorder that meant that they were not of sound mind when the crime was committed.
 
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  • #42
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Also note that whilst some definitions of mental disorder is to have a psychology far outside of the societal norm fervent ideological beliefs are not necessarily classed as mental disorders.
Ehh, lunatic beliefs that get rooted in history become unclassifiable as insane doctrines. And the wheel keeps on turning. I feel sorry for evolutionary psychologists. :uhh:
 
  • #43
Evo
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Everyone is backing away from any connection to Breivik. They probably hate Breivik for destroying their cause. Maybe not destroy, but it's surely set them back for quite awhile.

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-gunmans-mentor-slams-attacks-pure-evil-010126672.html;_ylt=Av2otrfmWN8Eq2fheZ8Eb7lVbBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTQwbXBjN2VhBGNjb2RlA2dtcHRvcDIwMHBvb2xyZXN0BHBrZwMzYTdlOGNhMS0wY2RkLTNlNGYtODQ5ZC05NWI0NTNjZGE0OTgEcG9zAzMEc2VjA25ld3NfZm9yX3lvdQR2ZXIDMGI2MTE2ZDAtYjliYi0xMWUwLWJiZDktOGVhOTY0ZTRmZmZl;_ylg=X3oDMTJ2N3Rya2I4BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDY2RiNDFlYzItY2JiZC0zM2E1LTgxODEtODZlYTk4MTFmZmY0BHBzdGNhdAN3b3JsZHxldXJvcGUEcHQDc3RvcnlwYWdl;_ylv=3 [Broken]
 
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  • #44
Ryan_m_b
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Ehh, lunatic beliefs that get rooted in history make it unclassifiable as insane beliefs. And the wheel keeps on turning. I feel sorry for evolutionary psychologists. :uhh:
It's a difficult one, at what point does a superstition become a compulsive disorder? Remember that for something to be a disorder/disease there has to be some health implication which has huge grey areas. It sounds simple sometimes but it's really not. I remember a lawyer friend of mine telling me about a case some years ago (back in the 80s/90s I think) of a homosexual S&M club that was raided by police. The youngest member was just 18 and was into having certain body parts stapled to furniture. The judge apparently said that the person clearly had to be mentally ill because of this decision, in actuality he was just into some pretty bizzare but not health harming activities (the acts caused minimal/superficial damage). The problem is that some people find it extremely difficult to imagine how someone could choose to do something that they themselves find a crazy choice.

With regards to Breivik, taking in what I know (which is not of course the full story so I may be wrong) he is perfectly capable of rational thought and planning. His actions were decided by his extreme ideologies that are not necessarily the product of a mental disorder.
 
  • #45
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With regards to Breivik, taking in what I know (which is not of course the full story so I may be wrong) he is perfectly capable of rational thought and planning. His actions were decided by his extreme ideologies that are not necessarily the product of a mental disorder.
Ahh. But, are the ideologies themselves a perverse form of an ailment of the mind? Specifically the ones that lead to these actions.
 
  • #46
Evo
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Ahh. But, are the ideologies themselves a perverse form of an ailment of the mind? Specifically the ones that lead to these actions.
I don't think anyone can answer that.
 
  • #47
Ryan_m_b
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Ahh. But, are the ideologies themselves a perverse form of an ailment of the mind? Specifically the ones that lead to these actions.
I agree with Evo, we can't say for sure. It's a hugely grey area, where do you draw the line between people who believe they are superman and people who believe in a personal God? I think we have to be strict with our classification of what constitutes a mental disorder with regards to ideologies. The system could be too easily abused with criminals using it as a defence and hate groups using it as an excuse to persecute.
 
  • #48
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Yes. This is an interesting talk by Dennett that I think is relevant.

 
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  • #49
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Ahh. But, are the ideologies themselves a perverse form of an ailment of the mind? Specifically the ones that lead to these actions.
Well it could be a mixture of both. It may not... it's not an objective one answer fits all. It goes case-by-case. Not all are cut and dry.

Regardless, I think you get my point about asking you to use the sources I've cited. (That is, that you don't know what you're talking about and are just being emotional about the situation)
 
  • #50
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Well it could be a mixture of both. It may not... it's not an objective one answer fits all. It goes case-by-case. Not all are cut and dry.

Regardless, I think you get my point about asking you to use the sources I've cited. (That is, that you don't know what you're talking about and are just being emotional about the situation)
Then, lets wait and see what's the verdict on Breviks mental health.
 

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