Breivik - Who made him do it?

  • News
  • Thread starter Willowz
  • Start date
  • #51
37
2
Have you missed all of the discussions on Norwegian law? The punishment for this crime is 21 years in a nice dorm where inmates play games with the unarmed female "guards", taking cooking classes and playing bongos in their living room, looking out large unbarred windows into a gorgeous 75 acre wood where they are allowed to run around and have fun.

Sounds like hell.

You might want to actually read about the Norwegian penal system before you make such comments.
I'm pretty sure I was in a thread defending the Norwegian system and you came in and said that I knew just as much as anyone who can google.

Clearly not the case. I'm sure you know how to use google... and I clearly know a lot more than you. You sound like those ridiculous fox news and daily mail 'media' sources.

Perhaps YOU should read more about their penal system. If you knew anything then you would realize just how stupid what you've said is.

(First, the jail system which you speak of is EXPERIMENTAL in an effort to see if it helps the inmates better while reducing the amount of recidivism, less recidivism = a lot less crime. Second, you are assuming this EXPERIMENTAL jail system is the only one in all of Norway, quit a stupid assumption I'm sure you got that from reading the Daily Fail. Thirdly, you assume that Breivik will even end up in this jail system. I HIGHLY doubt that, he will be in a barred cold floor cell more than likely but as I said if you have connections to the judge(s) that will be sentencing and they've told you that they already know he's guilty AND which nice fancy prison he's going to than go ahead and say that.)

The traditional Norwegian jails may be 'less harsh' than their American counterparts but that means **** all. If all you care about is harming people who break the law than I think that's a sick mentality, no matter how atrocious the crime is. He will be removed from society, more than likely for his entire life. That's good enough for me.

Now to just make sure he is unable to get any sort of followers. That is all.
 
  • #53
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
(First, the jail system which you speak of is EXPERIMENTAL in an effort to see if it helps the inmates better while reducing the amount of recidivism, less recidivism = a lot less crime. Second, you are assuming this EXPERIMENTAL jail system is the only one in all of Norway, quit a stupid assumption I'm sure you got that from reading the Daily Fail. Thirdly, you assume that Breivik will even end up in this jail system. I HIGHLY doubt that, he will be in a barred cold floor cell more than likely but as I said if you have connections to the judge(s) that will be sentencing and they've told you that they already know he's guilty AND which nice fancy prison he's going to than go ahead and say that.)
Can the attitude.
 
  • #56
arildno
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
9,970
132
Thanks arildno, you won't find find a holding cell like that in the US.

Does Ikea do all the jail cells there?
Probably.
After all, IKEA is the cheapest furniture designer&provider we have in Norway..
 
  • #57
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
Probably.
After all, IKEA is the cheapest furniture designer&provider we have in Norway..
And here. :tongue:
 
  • #58
37
2
I don't think it's against the rules to have attitude?

This is the hallway of the same prison cell that arildno posted:

article-2019720-0D2F5C4D00000578-651_954x635.jpg

Compared to an American MAXIMUM security prison:
a_supermax_0205.jpg


All that's different is the inside. As I said perhaps the conditions are 'less' harsh but it's hardly the 'luxurious' life at the cottage you're trying to portray, get real. You want to go live there go ahead.

Regardless, I want some official statements of what prison Breivik is headed to. No non-sense spouted by the Daily mail.
 
  • #59
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
Here's an article from 2009 on Norway's prison system.

Where convicts lead the good life
In Norway, even murders and rapists have a shot at landing in "open prison."

OSLO, Norway — The first time I went to prison, it was to an idyllic place with lush woodland, bright-colored houses and the waters of the Oslo fjord sparkling in the summer sun.

It was July 2006 and I was visiting Bastoey, an open prison 45 miles south of the Norwegian capital. It is home to about 115 detainees, including murderers, rapists and other felons, who enjoy activities not usually associated with prisons.

In summer, they can improve their backhand on the tennis court, ride a horse in the forest and hit the beach for a swim. In winter, they can go cross-country skiing or participate in the prison's ski-jumping competition.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/europe/091017/norway-open-prison
 
  • #61
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
There you go on about the experimental prison system again.
So, show me their bad prisons.
 
  • #62
arildno
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
9,970
132
I don't think it's against the rules to have attitude?

This is the hallway of the same prison cell that arildno posted:

article-2019720-0D2F5C4D00000578-651_954x635.jpg

Compared to an American MAXIMUM security prison:
a_supermax_0205.jpg


All that's different is the inside. As I said perhaps the conditions are 'less' harsh but it's hardly the 'luxurious' life at the cottage you're trying to portray, get real. You want to go live there go ahead.

Regardless, I want some official statements of what prison Breivik is headed to. No non-sense spouted by the Daily mail.
The best guesstimate is that he will stay at Ila prison, if he is judged sane and convicted.
We have only one other high-security prison besides Ila, Ringerike Prison where most of our extremely dangerous convicts are placed (we have 155 guards there, for 160 prisoners).

The major trouble with Ringerike Prison, however is that it would be extremely bad taste to place Breivik there:
Ringerike Prison is situated right beside the Tyrifjord Lake (with a grand view of it from the cells, I believe), where Utøya lies..
 
  • #63
MarcoD
In US terms, Norway is a very peaceful civil society where most crimes are committed by juveniles and (often) first-time offenders. Therefor, they rehabilitate people.

I am pretty sure the 'tree-huggers' prison mentioned here is there exactly for that reason: to rehabilitate mostly juveniles who just got derailed and lost touch that they live in a peaceful society, to make them understand that by setting the right example of that society in prison, that they get all the benefits and opportunities of that society, that society -in a manner of sense- doesn't care that they got side-tracked for a while, but that they should be damned sure not to do it again. That's why they have -in US terms- insanely low numbers of recidivism.

Breivik is a freak-of-nature given their society. Insane or not, he is a terrorist, he doesn't fit into any of the above categories.

One of the youth who was attacked and witnessed the atrocities responded that he felt sorry for Breivik, and that the guy deserves help.

This was a terrorist attack on Norway society. Moving towards harsher conditions and sharper divides in society is exactly what Breivik would want. The Norwegians response is exactly right: They will not let others dictate how they should live, and they will not change society for the purposes of an idiot.
 
  • #64
184
1
Stick him in here.

[URL]http://frugalzeitgeist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/prison-390x520.jpg[/URL]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #65
37
2
This was a terrorist attack on Norway society. Moving towards harsher conditions and sharper divides in society is exactly what Breivik would want. The Norwegians response is exactly right: They will not let others dictate how they should live, and they will not change society for the purposes of an idiot.
This is something some friends of mine from Norway have actually said over and over again. Even though one of them had suffered the loss of a friend.

Even those that were killed would not want Breivik to face harsh treatment. That's THEIR words, not mine.
 
  • #66
184
1
This was a terrorist attack on Norway society. Moving towards harsher conditions and sharper divides in society is exactly what Breivik would want. The Norwegians response is exactly right: They will not let others dictate how they should live, and they will not change society for the purposes of an idiot.
Slow-Clap.gif
 
  • #67
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
Stick him in here.

[URL]http://frugalzeitgeist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/prison-390x520.jpg
I[/URL] love it!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #68
apeiron
Gold Member
2,013
1
The US alternative - still too humane?....

ADX Florence - prisoners are kept in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day for at least the first year.

Most cells' furniture is made almost entirely out of poured concrete, including the desk, stool, and bed. Each chamber contains a toilet that shuts off if plugged, a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding, and a sink missing a potentially dangerous trap. Rooms may also be fitted with polished steel mirrors bolted to the wall, an electric light, a radio, and a television that shows recreational, educational and religious programming.[11] These are considered privileges that may be taken away as punishment, so they are placed and remotely controlled such that the inmate does not actually come into contact with them. The 4 in (10 cm) by 4 ft (1.2 m) windows are designed to prevent the prisoner from knowing his specific location within the complex because he can see only the sky and roof through them. Additionally, inmates exercise in what has been described as an "empty swimming pool," so they do not know their location for possible escape.[12] Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden, and food is hand-delivered by correctional officers. The prison as a whole contains a multitude of motion detectors and cameras, 1,400 remote-controlled steel doors, and 12 ft (3.66 m) high razor wire fences. Laser beams, pressure pads, and attack dogs guard the area between the prison walls and razor wire.[citation needed]

Eric Rudolph, the Olympic Park bomber, lamented in a series of 2006 letters to a Colorado Springs newspaper that the ADX is meant to "inflict misery and pain."[13] Charles Harrelson, who was sent to ADX after a failed attempt to escape from a Georgia prison, said "Part of the plan here is sensory deprivation," and "It could be infinitely worse."[12] A former ADX warden described the place as "a cleaner version of Hell."[14] There have been hundreds of "involuntary feedings" and four suicides.[14] Most recently, in June 2009 Richard Reid, commonly known as the "shoe bomber", went on a hunger strike and was force-fed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence
 
  • #69
MarcoD
The US alternative - still too humane?....
I don't know. Evo once commented that witch-hunts don't exist anymore. I partly disagree. A witch-hunt can be seen as an emotional response to something which triggers public moral outrage. Breivik, Strauss-Kahn, the US's public response to 9/11 can all also be viewed from that perspective.

The right thing, I think, is to stay calm about it and just look at the numbers: Are you, as a society, better off with harsh penalties, or tree-hugging criminals to death? The problem is that nobody knows what works except for crime statistics and recidivism.
 
  • #70
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
The difference is with hardened criminals here, people that grew up in a world of gang violence that don't know anything else. You live by having power over others, drugs, killing, it's their life. A failure of society, yes, but they are killing machines, they don't care. Send one of these people to a Norwegian prison and see what happens. These people have no remorse, they get their kicks out of killing people.

US prison max security.

[PLAIN]http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4874/inmates.jpg [Broken]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #71
apeiron
Gold Member
2,013
1
The right thing, I think, is to stay calm about it and just look at the numbers: Are you, as a society, better off with harsh penalties, or tree-hugging criminals to death? The problem is that nobody knows what works except for crime statistics and recidivism.
All the more so on what is supposed to be a science forum. Let's see a rational examination of the facts. Emotional rants and xenophonic comments we can get anywhere.
 
  • #72
apeiron
Gold Member
2,013
1
A failure of society, yes,
Precisely. So focus on fixing the society. What would that look like?
 
  • #73
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
Precisely. So focus on fixing the society. What would that look like?
Impossible.
 
  • #74
MarcoD
The difference is with hardened criminals here, people that grew up in a world of gang violence that don't know anything else. You live by having power over others, drugs, killing, it's their life. A failure of society, yes, but they are killing machines, they don't care. Send one of these people to a Norwegian prison and see what happens. These people have no remorse, they get their kicks out of killing people.
I am aware of that. The US is a big place in comparison to Norway, and if you would take the EU in total I have little doubt that crime numbers would be comparable if not larger. Norway is just a very small, relatively rich country. It's like comparing Seattle to the rest of the states. (I don't know if Seattle is the right example.)

What I do think, is that Norway has one thing right: It is not about punishment, it is about rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated, have a quiet life and contribute to society. I don't care about the other criminals.

The stupid thing about Breivik is that he falls outside the norm. It is unlikely that it would have happened, now it happened, and it is unlikely that it will happen again anytime soon. In a sense, it doesn't matter what happens to him. Maybe they rehabilitate him, maybe they let him rot for the rest of his life. But I don't think they should change a perfectly well working system over him.
 
  • #75
Evo
Mentor
23,141
2,697
I am aware of that. The US is a big place in comparison to Norway, and if you would take the EU in total I have little doubt that crime numbers would be comparable if not larger. Norway is just a very small, relatively rich country. It's like comparing Seattle to the rest of the states. (I don't know if Seattle is the right example.)

What I do think, is that Norway has one thing right: It is not about punishment, it is about rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated, have a quiet life and contribute to society. I don't care about the other criminals.

The stupid thing about Breivik is that he falls outside the norm. It is unlikely that it would have happened, now it happened, and it is unlikely that it will happen again anytime soon. In a sense, it doesn't matter what happens to him. Maybe they rehabilitate him, maybe they let him rot for the rest of his life. But I don't think they should change a perfectly well working system over him.
Like you said, not everyone can be rehabilitated. For most of the hardened criminals in the US, that's the case. You cannot compare the Martha Stewart type criminals in Norway to what we have in the US. Just the sad reality.
 

Attachments

Related Threads on Breivik - Who made him do it?

  • Last Post
Replies
7
Views
5K
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • Last Post
Replies
5
Views
12K
Replies
4
Views
773
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • Last Post
Replies
11
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
4K
Replies
2
Views
3K
Top