Unintended Design: When the Universe Knows Itself

[Xznkl]

Sometimes, a thing is created without any intentional design. And yet when it's complete, you feel as if you had it in mind all along.

If the universe operates in this way, will there be a day when it knows itself for the first time?

 

[DaveC426913]

Sometimes, a thing is created without any intentional design. And yet when it's complete, you feel as if you had it in mind all along.

If the universe operates in this way, will there be a day when it knows itself for the first time?

Well, the flaw in that analogy is this:
In the human example, you are talking about a conscious mind creating something - whether intentionally or unintentionally.
That precondition does not exist in the case of the universe. There is no designing mechanism which could develop something unintentionally, let alone intentionally.

 

[Xznkl]

Well, the flaw in that analogy is this:
In the human example, you are talking about a conscious mind creating something - whether intentionally or unintentionally.
That precondition does not exist in the case of the universe. There is no designing mechanism which could develop something unintentionally, let alone intentionally.

And if the universe has a consciousness? And suppose you can create without consciousness?

 

[OOO]

And if the universe has a consciousness? And suppose you can create without consciousness?

And if you are supposing too much ? And what if you are not talking about your experience but rather about something someone has told you while your consciousness was half awake, thereby creating an attitude of his own liking ?

 

[Xznkl]

And if you are supposing too much ? And what if you are not talking about your experience but rather about something someone has told you while your consciousness was half awake, thereby creating an attitude of his own liking ?

I don't think that is the case. And who's to say I am supposing too much, I guess you are. I don't feel that I am. I think it doesn't really matter at the end.

I know that when you are quite complete, you will see who you are for the first time. If we are part of creation, and if looking at creation as a whole. It doesn't know itself because there is no self...but suppose that it will happen the same that happens to me, will it know itself for the first time? And if it does, what is it like? What will happen?

 

[OOO]

I don't think that is the case. And who's to say I am supposing too much, I guess you are. I don't feel that I am. I think it doesn't really matter at the end.

I know that when you are quite complete, you will see who you are for the first time. If we are part of creation, and if looking at creation as a whole. It doesn't know itself because there is no self...but suppose that it will happen the same that happens to me, will it know itself for the first time? And if it does, what is it like? What will happen?

What is it ? Have you seen it with your own eyes ? It seems to me that you are using words in a very peculiar way that drastically contradicts my experience (and I would claim almost everyone I know personally too).

At the moment I am looking at my computer. I can imagine that there is something outside the door, outside the building, outside of town, outside the country, in outer space, but to be honest, I don't know. If Venus had collided with some giant asteroid in the meantime and vanished into the interstellar space I wouldn't have noticed. I have no ability to look at the creation as a whole. I can only look at its parts and complement my ignorance with imagination.

Are you claiming to have second sight ?

 

[Xznkl]

What is it? Everything and nothing
Have you seen it? Yes, but not ALL of it.
I don't think you can look at creation as a whole. But you can say come closer to it than someone else, or closer than last year.
If you look at all the parts, do you think it will develope consciousness? And aside from that, does creation need consciousness?

 

[OOO]

What is it? Everything and nothing

Sorry but this answer seems to be somewhat of a lame excuse.

Have you seen it? Yes, but not ALL of it.

I understand, I have also seen different things in my life, some stranger than others. But what does this help ?

I don't think you can look at creation as a whole. But you can say come closer to it than someone else, or closer than last year.

That sounds more modest now. I could agree with that statement.

If you look at all the parts, do you think it will develope consciousness?

Haven't we just agreed that we can't look at all the parts ? It's a mental construction and as such it is subject to failure. In my opinion there can be no doubt that an objective reality exists, but nobody can say what it is.

And aside from that, does creation need consciousness?

A needs B if you can't observe A without B occurring as well. The problem is that not only you can't observe A (creation as a whole) at all, but you can't observe B (consciousness outside of your self perception) as well. So this question cannot be answered by using words and logic.

You may however have experience that I don't have, but then there is no way to prove it to me by using words. There is no use in talking about colour with the blind.

 

[Xznkl]

So you tell me how to go about it?
Seeing that i can't talk about it like this, how can i talk about it?

 

[OOO]

So you tell me how to go about it?
Seeing that i can't talk about it like this, how can i talk about it?

You may talk endlessly about it, but for what reason ?

 

[Xznkl]

You may talk endlessly about it, but for what reason ?

Because I believe that an individual's reality might come very close to the objective reality you were speaking about. And for that to happen i'd have to talk about it or else I don't think I will get anywhere sane.

 

[OOO]

Because I believe that an individual's reality might come very close to the objective reality you were speaking about. And for that to happen i'd have to talk about it or else I don't think I will get anywhere sane.

Animals are naturally afraid of the unknown. This behaviour is a very helpful for survival. When they are afraid, they turn back. The concept of reality is only useful in well-known territory.