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Built without design

  1. Oct 9, 2007 #1
    Sometimes, a thing is created without any intentional design. And yet when it's complete, you feel as if you had it in mind all along.

    If the universe operates in this way, will there be a day when it knows itself for the first time?
     
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  3. Oct 9, 2007 #2

    DaveC426913

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    Well, the flaw in that analogy is this:
    In the human example, you are talking about a conscious mind creating something - whether intentionally or unintentionally.
    That precondition does not exist in the case of the universe. There is no designing mechanism which could develop something unintentionally, let alone intentionally.
     
  4. Oct 10, 2007 #3
    And if the universe has a consciousness? And suppose you can create without consciousness?
     
  5. Oct 10, 2007 #4

    OOO

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    And if you are supposing too much ? And what if you are not talking about your experience but rather about something someone has told you while your consciousness was half awake, thereby creating an attitude of his own liking ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  6. Oct 10, 2007 #5
    I don't think that is the case. And who's to say I am supposing too much, I guess you are. I don't feel that I am. I think it doesn't really matter at the end.

    I know that when you are quite complete, you will see who you are for the first time. If we are part of creation, and if looking at creation as a whole. It doesn't know itself because there is no self...but suppose that it will happen the same that happens to me, will it know itself for the first time? And if it does, what is it like? What will happen?
     
  7. Oct 10, 2007 #6

    OOO

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    What is it ? Have you seen it with your own eyes ? It seems to me that you are using words in a very peculiar way that drastically contradicts my experience (and I would claim almost everyone I know personally too).

    At the moment I am looking at my computer. I can imagine that there is something outside the door, outside the building, outside of town, outside the country, in outer space, but to be honest, I don't know. If Venus had collided with some giant asteroid in the meantime and vanished into the interstellar space I wouldn't have noticed. I have no ability to look at the creation as a whole. I can only look at its parts and complement my ignorance with imagination.

    Are you claiming to have second sight ?
     
  8. Oct 10, 2007 #7
    What is it? Everything and nothing
    Have you seen it? Yes, but not ALL of it.
    I dont think you can look at creation as a whole. But you can say come closer to it than someone else, or closer than last year.
    If you look at all the parts, do you think it will develope consciousness? And aside from that, does creation need consciousness?
     
  9. Oct 10, 2007 #8

    OOO

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    Sorry but this answer seems to be somewhat of a lame excuse.
    I understand, I have also seen different things in my life, some stranger than others. But what does this help ?
    That sounds more modest now. I could agree with that statement.
    Haven't we just agreed that we can't look at all the parts ? It's a mental construction and as such it is subject to failure. In my opinion there can be no doubt that an objective reality exists, but nobody can say what it is.
    A needs B if you can't observe A without B occurring as well. The problem is that not only you can't observe A (creation as a whole) at all, but you can't observe B (consciousness outside of your self perception) as well. So this question cannot be answered by using words and logic.

    You may however have experience that I don't have, but then there is no way to prove it to me by using words. There is no use in talking about colour with the blind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  10. Oct 10, 2007 #9
    So you tell me how to go about it?
    Seeing that i can't talk about it like this, how can i talk about it?
     
  11. Oct 10, 2007 #10

    OOO

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    You may talk endlessly about it, but for what reason ?
     
  12. Oct 10, 2007 #11
    Because I believe that an individual's reality might come very close to the objective reality you were speaking about. And for that to happen i'd have to talk about it or else I don't think I will get anywhere sane.
     
  13. Oct 10, 2007 #12

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    Animals are naturally afraid of the unknown. This behaviour is a very helpful for survival. When they are afraid, they turn back. The concept of reality is only useful in well-known territory.
     
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