Questioning Bush & Blair's Relationship with God

[the number 42]

Saddam Hussein reminds me of Adolf Hitler.

Good for you. What does this have to do with Bush & God (the title of this thread)?

 

[misskitty]

Merely that if he had not have been taken out of power, his insane and irrational acts could have become as vile or worse than those of Adolf Hitler during the Holocaust.

 

[dextercioby]

No, I miss intrepreted what your meaning was, my bad. I'm sorry.

No problem.

Anyway. The one thing that really caught my attention about Hussein being similar in character to Hitler was the people couldn't spea out against the government. If they did, they would have been killed. Also, the mass killings of the nationals was like a modern day reminder of the genocide during the second world war.

I'm sorry,but i'll have to disagree.Hitler didn't kill Germans,pure Germans,that it.He loved his people.He strongly believe that the Germans were superior,ergo should rule the entire world.You comparation should have been made with Stalin.He didn't care about the Russians.He sent a lotta people into Siberia,Romanians,too.He was an incarnation of satan.

Daniel.

 

[misskitty]

"He was an incarnation of satan." -Daniel

I will completely agree with that statement. The man was sick. Hitler, Stalin, and Hussein are all sick. Where was God when they were put here?

 

[the number 42]

Merely that if he had not have been taken out of power, his insane and irrational acts could have become as vile or worse than those of Adolf Hitler during the Holocaust.

Uh? What does this have to do with Bush & God? Start a different thread if you want to talk about 'Hussein & Hitler'.

 

[misskitty]

Seems like whenever sick people come into positions of power, God disappears from the picture.

I don't understand where Bush is getting his "Divine Guidance" from...God tell someone to go do something to hurt someone else.

 

[the number 42]

Seems like whenever sick people come into positions of power, God disappears from the picture.

Interesting point. Makes me think of Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now.

I don't understand where Bush is getting his "Divine Guidance" from...God tell someone to go do something to hurt someone else.

True, and what kind of god tells people to do that? The Old Testament God, at best.

 

[misskitty]

Its kind of scary to see the similarities in the movies and what has happened in this country in the past few years. My friends and I were watching a film, I forget what it was, but it was a plane being hijacked and crashed into a building causing mass hysteria...reminded us of 9-11. What was even scarier were the decisions the government made after it happened...

I thought Hollywood was only supposed to mirror real-life, not predict events!

"True, and what kind of god tells people to do that? The Old Testament God, at best."
-the number 42

Agreed. It is oh so illogical and wrong. There are no grounds for killing people...they have just as much right to live on this Earth as anyone else. God wouldn't go around telling Presidents to go bomb their neighbors. Especially if God claims to be all loving and forgiving.

Seems hypocritial doesn't it?

 

[russ_watters]

True, and what kind of god tells people to do that? The Old Testament God, at best.

Don't forget the God in the Koran.

 

[the number 42]

Don't forget the God in the Koran.

Or Kali in Hinduism. Point is, its not very Christ-like (love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek etc).

 

[misskitty]

Never read the Koran...what does it say about similar subjects?

 

[the number 42]

Its kind of scary to see the similarities in the movies and what has happened in this country in the past few years. My friends and I were watching a film, I forget what it was, but it was a plane being hijacked and crashed into a building causing mass hysteria...reminded us of 9-11. What was even scarier were the decisions the government made after it happened...

I thought Hollywood was only supposed to mirror real-life, not predict events!

Burnsys post a brilliant link a few months ago:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/video/lonegunmanpilot.wmv

Scary stuff.

 

[misskitty]

Stupid computer! Won't let me get to the link.

I bet it is pretty scary stuff.

 

[SOS2008]

http://www.counterpunch.org/wormer1011.html suggests that Bush the less than right thinking man shows most of the tell tale signs of a "dry drunk" , although I would add Christianity as an authoritarian religion also plays a part in his "complex". I have some sympathy for him after reading the article.

This has been discussed in earlier threads, though not in as much detail. And with regard to another thread on mental health, perhaps there are multiple-personalities in Duped-Ya's complex. As put forth before, but in more detail, perhaps there is a combination of "dry drunk" with a Messianic complex that results in going so far to the right to be defined as fascist as follows (my remarks in brackets):

Politex, 03.03.05 - 20 Characteristics Of A Fascist Political Party
1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
5. Rampant sexism
6. A controlled mass media
7. Obsession with national security
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together
9. Power of corporations protected
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
12. Obsession with crime and punishment
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption
14. Fraudulent elections
15. Ur-Fascism based upon a selective populism – individuals as individuals have no rights, rather the People are a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will
16. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak – invented by Orwell in “1984” as the official language of what he called Ingsoc – all schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary and elementary syntax in order to limit complex and critical reasoning
17. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge. For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.
18. One of the most typical features of historical fascism was to appeal to a frustrated middle class [in the present case including the Christian community who feel they are oppressed and even perhaps have a false persecution complex].
19. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy – This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. [A melding of the neocon dream and the fundamentalist belief in the “rapture.”]
20. The Ur-Fascist leader presents himself as the heroic representative…As such, his image is ubiquitous in the media, and is often photographed in costume [military uniform]… Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters [religious “values”] – from chastity to homosexuality.

Bush's appeal is to a mix of right-wing groups in this way. I would not feel sorry for this person -- I would be VERY worried.

 

[the number 42]

Its frightening when you put it like that. What I'd really like to know now is whether GWB really believes any of the 'rapture' guff e.g. http://www.raptureready.com/
My guess is that he doesn't, but I don't know. Is there any evidence either way?

 

[misskitty]

That is quite an extensive list.

 

[SOS2008]

Merely that if he had not have been taken out of power, his insane and irrational acts could have become as vile or worse than those of Adolf Hitler during the Holocaust.

I believe everyone agrees that Saddam was a ruthless dictator not unlike Hitler. And while not about Bush and God directly and how this variable plays in Bush's personality and practices, here is a list of dictators the U.S. has supported/supports (albiet written in 1995), and you will note inclusion of Hitler in the list:

Abacha, General Sani ----------------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi ------------------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo ---------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio --------------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ----------------------------Brunei
Botha, P.W. ---------------------------------------South Africa
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio -----------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo ------------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -------------------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ---------------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel ----------------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois --------------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude-----------------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ---------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------------Spain
Hitler, Adolf ---------------------------------------Germany
Hassan II-------------------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko -------------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut --------------------------------------Turkey

And here is another reminder from a news article entitled: "Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein:The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984" The person shaking hands with Saddam in the photo it is Donald Rumsfeld.

 

[misskitty]

Rumdfeld is an idiot. I can see where your coming from. That was just my inital thought of Saddam, that he reminded me of Hitler. I don't know anything about the dictators mentioned in your list and I'm not going to pretend that I do know information about them. Although I am sure that they are just as bad.

Besides no one ever said that politicians were honest people or unhypocritical either...

 

[SOS2008]

Its frightening when you put it like that. What I'd really like to know now is whether GWB really believes any of the 'rapture' guff e.g. http://www.raptureready.com/
My guess is that he doesn't, but I don't know. Is there any evidence either way?

I've mentioned this article in the thread on the "culture war" - Bill Moyers: There is no tomorrow - January 30, 2005 @ http://www.startribune.com/stories/562/5211218.html. If you have time, this is an interesting article -- It mentions various U.S. leaders who embrace this concept, not just Bush. On this point:

From the Grist Magazine web site, The Godly Must Be Crazy: "Abortion. Same-sex marriage. Stem-cell research. U.S. legislators backed by the Christian right vote against these issues with near-perfect consistency. That probably doesn't surprise you, but this might: Those same legislators are equally united and unswerving in their opposition to environmental protection.

See the numbers laid out in graph form, for the Senate and the House:
· Senate ratings chart
· House ratings chart
See how individual senators and representatives score:
· Senate Excel spreadsheet
· House Excel spreadsheet

Forty-five senators and 186 representatives in 2003 earned 80- to 100-percent approval ratings from the nation's three most influential Christian right advocacy groups -- the Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, and Family Resource Council. Many of those same lawmakers also got flunking grades -- less than 10 percent, on average -- from the League of Conservation Voters last year.

These statistics are puzzling at first. Opposing abortion and stem-cell research is consistent with the religious right's belief that life begins at the moment of conception. Opposing gay marriage is consistent with its claim that homosexual activity is proscribed by the Bible. Both beliefs are a familiar staple of today's political discourse. But a scripture-based justification for anti-environmentalism?

Many Christian fundamentalists feel that concern for the future of our planet is irrelevant, because it has no future. They believe we are living in the End Time, when the son of God will return, the righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal hellfire."

 

[misskitty]

Great point. A scripture based justification for anit environmnetalism is way out of whack. Unforunately that is all to true about Christian fundamentalists. I disagree with the view of "What's it matter". We are here for an unknown length of time and we should make this place the best it can in the mean time. I agree with your argument SOS2008.

 

[Informal Logic]

RE: The "culture war" that's why I put Hillary vs. Frist as a 9 on the scale of continuation of this divisiveness in the U.S. You will note Frist is mentioned in both of the referenced articles.

 

[misskitty]

I'm confused...

"RE: The "culture war" that's why I put Hillary vs. Frist as a 9 on the scale of continuation of this divisiveness in the U.S. You will note Frist is mentioned in both of the referenced articles." -Informal Logic

I don't understand how this relates to the thread? Maybe its just me.

 

[SOS2008]

I disagree with the view of "What's it matter". We are here for an unknown length of time and we should make this place the best it can in the mean time. I agree with your argument SOS2008.

Likewise, misskitty. In the article by Moyers, he writes: "It is hard for the journalist to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me put it on a personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this world without expecting a confident future and getting up every morning to do what I can to bring it about." Ditto.

In the meantime, we know the word liberal is a bad word, but now secular means "sinner." From the CCA (Christian Coalition of America) site: "The election demonstrates that a majority of Americans are tired of being told that they should somehow be ashamed of highlighting their faith in the public square - and yet should accept every ideology, depravity or secular idea that liberals promote." You depraved liberals, you! And those who defend civil liberties and preservation of separation of church and state, you are anti-religious, didn't you know...and I suppose even if you believe in God.

 

[misskitty]

I can't understand how people can be that way. The quote from the CCA is a little bit annoying. I don't believe there is anything wrong with the word liberal or that secular means sinner. It bothers me that people think that way. I am not saying they shouldn't speak their minds and/or opinions.

Again, a well stated view SOS.

 

[the number 42]

I've mentioned this article in the thread on the "culture war" - Bill Moyers: There is no tomorrow - January 30, 2005 @ http://www.startribune.com/stories/562/5211218.html. If you have time, this is an interesting article -- It mentions various U.S. leaders who embrace this concept, not just Bush.

It's an interesting article, but it says nothing about whether GWB himself - or anyone close to him - believes in the rapture, or creationism, or any of the rest of it. Its easy to assume that he does on account of his electorate, but it looks like there isn't a shred of evidence that he's doing any more than posturing to maintain the important Christian vote. He's being coy, neither saying he believes it, nor denying it. A shrewd position to take.

Now, given that this is the Bush & God thread, the most that can be said is that the guy says a few prayers, and is a born again Christian after misusing booze. Some of the people who voted for him are probably a different story, but that's a different story.

 

[misskitty]

It seems as though Bush will conform to almost any standards to get people to vote for him. Whether he really is a Born-Again Christian or not is unknown, since none of use know him personally. Clouded is the only way to describe his current judgement. He needs to make sure that he makes his decisions carefully. He got away with invading Iraq and overthrowing the tyrannical regime, however, I am not so sure the general public will stand for him attempting to do the same thing with Syria or Iran.

People die in war. That is inevitable. Bush finds himself in a very precarious position. He must make sure whatever decision he makes, he thinks all the way through and considers whether the sacrifices out weight the gains.

 

[motai]

It seems as though Bush will conform to almost any standards to get people to vote for him. Whether he really is a Born-Again Christian or not is unknown, since none of use know him personally. Clouded is the only way to describe his current judgement. He needs to make sure that he makes his decisions carefully. He got away with invading Iraq and overthrowing the tyrannical regime, however, I am not so sure the general public will stand for him attempting to do the same thing with Syria or Iran.

People die in war. That is inevitable. Bush finds himself in a very precarious position. He must make sure whatever decision he makes, he thinks all the way through and considers whether the sacrifices out weight the gains.

Yet interestingly enough a reason that people voted for him was that he 'stuck to his guns' and maintained a strong stance on things (yeehaw pow pow pow :tongue2:).

Doesn't anyone else find it rather difficult to empathize with the fundamentalist's point of view? I myself am perplexed by the anti-environmental stance that they are taking, taking care of nature imo is far more important than selfish greed.

edit: But then again, whatever they say is the will of God, and that cannot be questioned :yuck:.

 

[SOS2008]

It's an interesting article, but it says nothing about whether GWB himself - or anyone close to him - believes in the rapture, or creationism, or any of the rest of it. Its easy to assume that he does on account of his electorate, but it looks like there isn't a shred of evidence that he's doing any more than posturing to maintain the important Christian vote. He's being coy, neither saying he believes it, nor denying it. A shrewd position to take.

Now, given that this is the Bush & God thread, the most that can be said is that the guy says a few prayers, and is a born again Christian after misusing booze. Some of the people who voted for him are probably a different story, but that's a different story.

After doing some more googling for awhile, what I found tended to be along the line of what Burnsys quoted. Reading between the lines it makes me think Bush does believe in the "rapture" in addition to actions, such as his complete dismissal of global warming. But you're right, if he does believe it is the End of Days, it appears he avoids making direct statements to that effect. But you don't have to be too bright to know better than this, do you?

With regard to him being coy or shrewd, etc., that would insinuate a clever, very intelligent person. Once again, it is hard to believe this, and if anything it is "Bush's Brain" (Karl Rove) who may take the credit?

 

[the number 42]

Doesn't anyone else find it rather difficult to empathize with the fundamentalist's point of view?

Christian fundamentalism = good.
Muslim fundamentalism = bad.

What's difficult to understand about that?
Its a similar logic to that regarding WMDs.

 

[misskitty]

That is one way of looking at it. If I could vote I would have voted for Bush. For the same reason that he stuck to his guns. I don't know. I could be mistaken in saying Bush will do anything to gan votes. I know I would have voted for him because he did what he said he was going to do. That and I wouldn't feel safe with John Kerry in office.

 

[the number 42]

With regard to him being coy or shrewd, etc., that would insinuate a clever, very intelligent person. Once again, it is hard to believe this, and if anything it is "Bush's Brain" (Karl Rove) who may take the credit?

In my book you don't have to be very bright to be cunning/shrewd etc. He was at least smart enough to have the right daddy . And though GWB wouldn't have made it thus far if he were a total idiot, I still defy anyone to edit 5 minutes of film in such a way as to make him look intelligent.

After doing some more googling for awhile, what I found tended to be along the line of what Burnsys quoted. Reading between the lines it makes me think Bush does believe in the "rapture" in addition to actions, such as his complete dismissal of global warming. But you're right, if he does believe it is the End of Days, it appears he avoids making direct statements to that effect. But you don't have to be too bright to know better than this, do you?

Welll, the day he comes out of the closet and starts burbling like Robert de Niro sinking beneath the river in Cape Fear is the day I believe the guy is as religious as he seems to want us to believe.

 

[misskitty]

Lol...:laughing: I will agree with that. It seems only then that we can take him to be as religiously serious as he claims.

 

[SOS2008]

In my book you don't have to be very bright to be cunning/shrewd etc. He was at least smart enough to have the right daddy . And though GWB wouldn't have made it thus far if he were a total idiot, I still defy anyone to edit 5 minutes of film in such a way as to make him look intelligent.

I was thinking of a documentary referred to By Peter Clothier: “I tuned into a documentary on the Sundance network--a documentary entitled, aptly, "Bush's Brain." It was the story of your Rove, and his Machiavellian machinations to elevate you, first to the governorship of Texas, then to the Presidency of the United States. It was a story of outright cheating, lies, deceit--anything it took to destroy opponents and clear the field for your incompetence. It was the destruction of Ann Richards, on your way to the Texas Governor's mansion, and of John Mccain on your way to the White House. (Ellie wondered aloud, giving voice to my thoughts, how Mccain could have come back to support you, after your deplorable attack on his war service to this country, and your scurrilous, heartless rumor-mongering about his black, adopted "love child"--as you people had the boundless, reckless temerity to suggest.) It was the story, too, of the crushing of Max Cleland in your ruthless pursuit of even greater Republican power when you were already in the White House.”

Welll, the day he comes out of the closet and starts burbling like Robert de Niro sinking beneath the river in Cape Fear is the day I believe the guy is as religious as he seems to want us to believe.

And this gave thought to the Islamic community's criticism (including Bin Laden) in regard to Saddam's true devotion as a Muslim.

 

[the number 42]

And this gave thought to the Islamic community's criticism (including Bin Laden) in regard to Saddam's true devotion as a Muslim.

Of course you're not saying that Hussein was a religious fundamentalist. Iraq was a secular state, and I imagined the guy did the minimum amount of mosque-going that he could decently get away with.

 

[SOS2008]

Of course you're not saying that Hussein was a religious fundamentalist. Iraq was a secular state, and I imagined the guy did the minimum amount of mosque-going that he could decently get away with.

I'm saying skepticism of Bush's true religious devotion is similar (i.e., it is a front to increase constituency support). However, if this is the case, I question whether Bush does this because HE's so clever, or if he just has good spin doctors in his regime who use it well.