Can an aircraft using a geomagnetic field generate lift?

  • #1
18
0
As shown in the figure, the aircraft includes a geomagnetic field convergence layer, which is a superconductor material. The geomagnetic field convergence layer repels the direction of changing the geomagnetic field, so that the geomagnetic field passes between the upper and lower converging layers, and the geomagnetic field of the narrow region between the converging layers The convergence is enhanced, and the aircraft further includes an energized coil. The lower portion of the coil is located in a region of the geomagnetic field where the narrow region between the convergence layers is enhanced, and the upper portion of the coil is located above the region where the geomagnetic field is not enhanced.
--- My English is not good, the above content is automatically translated by Google.
v2-c134b22c8008808911a2d8076c0add9c_hd.jpg
 

Attachments

  • v2-c134b22c8008808911a2d8076c0add9c_hd.jpg
    v2-c134b22c8008808911a2d8076c0add9c_hd.jpg
    46.3 KB · Views: 605
Last edited:

Answers and Replies

  • #2
494
197
Geomagnetic field cannot produce lift with any current flowing through the small closed loop (large loops have 2-nd order effects in vertical field though).
All arrangements to produce net lift or thrust with geomagnetic field utilize either open linear currents (MXER and related tether designs) or partially anchor current loop to Earth to absorb reaction force.
 
  • #3
18
0
Geomagnetic field cannot produce lift with any current flowing through the small closed loop (large loops have 2-nd order effects in vertical field though).
All arrangements to produce net lift or thrust with geomagnetic field utilize either open linear currents (MXER and related tether designs) or partially anchor current loop to Earth to absorb reaction force.
Thank you, the lower end of the coil will not be subjected to more force? Where the geomagnetic field strength B is larger
 
  • #4
855
302
Sadly, the Earth's geomagnetic field is orders of magnitude too weak to do what you hope...

Nearest you'll get is Magnetic Levitation for trains, which have a custom track......
 
  • Like
Likes davenn, Klystron and berkeman
  • #5
18
0
Sadly, the Earth's geomagnetic field is orders of magnitude too weak to do what you hope...

Nearest you'll get is Magnetic Levitation for trains, which have a custom track......
Yes, the geomagnetic field is too weak, so if the superconductor is used to concentrate the geomagnetic field? Such as enhancing 100 times
 
  • #6
494
197
Thank you, the lower end of the coil will not be subjected to more force? Where the geomagnetic field strength B is larger
This is second-order effect i mentioned. The magnitude is too small to use it in practical designs, even with superconductors
 
  • #7
Vanadium 50
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Education Advisor
27,661
11,887
so if the superconductor is used to concentrate the geomagnetic field?

How does it do this? Furthermore, isn't the job of the superconductor to create its own field? This sounds like trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
 
  • Like
Likes sophiecentaur, davenn and russ_watters
  • #8
18
0
How does it do this? Furthermore, isn't the job of the superconductor to create its own field? This sounds like trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

The external magnetic field is concentrated according to the Meissner effect of the superconductor. From the following figure, the external magnetic field bypassing the partial region of the superconductor is enhanced. I don't understand the part of the magnetic field that you are talking about is a superconductor? What is the principle? Ф=SB, Ф unchanged, S becomes smaller, B should be bigger.
v2-3e5f054e024383ddb1d1bba4ce90b081_hd.jpg
 

Attachments

  • v2-3e5f054e024383ddb1d1bba4ce90b081_hd.jpg
    v2-3e5f054e024383ddb1d1bba4ce90b081_hd.jpg
    90.7 KB · Views: 580
  • #9
18
0
Sadly, the Earth's geomagnetic field is orders of magnitude too weak to do what you hope...

Nearest you'll get is Magnetic Levitation for trains, which have a custom track......
Do you think there will be lift, but the lift is too weak?
 
  • #10
Vanadium 50
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Education Advisor
27,661
11,887
I still have a hard time understanding exactly what this is supposed to do, but let's look at this from first principles: the Earth's field is about 60 uT. That gives it an energy density of 1.4 x 10-3 J/m3. That's equivalent to a pressure of 1.4 x 10-3 Pa or one five-millionth of a pound per square inch. That's all the force you have to work with. Need more force? Then you need more square inches.
 
  • Like
Likes davenn, DrClaude, Astronuc and 1 other person
  • #11
18
0
I still have a hard time understanding exactly what this is supposed to do, but let's look at this from first principles: the Earth's field is about 60 uT. That gives it an energy density of 1.4 x 10-3 J/m3. That's equivalent to a pressure of 1.4 x 10-3 Pa or one five-millionth of a pound per square inch. That's all the force you have to work with. Need more force? Then you need more square inches.
My English level is not good, the translation of the above post may not be accurate, re-translated as follows:
Can a thruster using geomagnetic fields and superconductors generate a thrust?
As shown in the figure, the thruster is equipped with a geomagnetic field convergence layer, which is a superconducting material. The geomagnetic field convergence layer repels and blocks the magnetic flux of the geomagnetic field, so that the magnetic flux of the geomagnetic field passes through the narrow area between the upper and lower convergence layers. The geomagnetic field intensity B in the narrow area between the convergent layers of the geomagnetic field is enhanced.The thruster is also equipped with a electrifying coil, and the lower end of the coil is located in a narrow area between the convergent layers.
index-php-action-dlattach-topic-47298-png.png
 

Attachments

  • index-php-action-dlattach-topic-47298-png.png
    index-php-action-dlattach-topic-47298-png.png
    302.4 KB · Views: 509
  • #12
Vanadium 50
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
Education Advisor
27,661
11,887
I explained why the answer is no, this won't work. If your English is not at the level where you can understand why, your best course of action is to find a translator.
 
  • #13
OmCheeto
Gold Member
2,193
2,646
Can a thruster using geomagnetic fields and superconductors generate a thrust?
My guess is yes.
But as others have stated, it would be a feeble thrust, at most.
Since I don't understand how your model works, I imagined just a magnet hung from a string from the ceiling.
Regardless of which direction it's pointing, there's going to be a force acting on it, and therefore a thrust.
How much that thrust is, might require a very fancy experimental device.

hmmmm.... I wonder if the data from my experiment from 4 years ago could be used?
Not sure.

BTW, it might be a useful idea in outer space, where feeble thrusts are not so useless.

Electromagnetic_propulsion#Spacecraft
There are multiple applications for EMP[Electromagnetic propulsion] technologies in the field of aerospace. Many of these applications are conceptual as of now, however, there are also several applications that range from near term to next century. One of such applications is the use of EMP to control fine adjustments of orbiting satellites. One of these particular systems is based on the direct interactions of the vehicle's own electromagnetic field and the magnetic field of the Earth. The thrust force may be thought of as an electrodynamic force of interaction of the electric current inside its conductors with the applied natural field of the Earth. To attain a greater force of interaction, the magnetic field must be propagated further from the flight craft.
 
  • #14
sophiecentaur
Science Advisor
Gold Member
2020 Award
26,794
5,671
Elon Musk hasn't tried it so it can't work! :wink:
 
  • Like
Likes li dan, Nik_2213 and davenn
  • #15
Dr-Flay
Gold Member
8
13
I do like this topic, as it is one of my bar-room philosophy type areas. Not practical but fun to explore.

A problem I think you would hit when actually trying to move around the planet, is that the magnetic fields vary a lot from place to place.
The planet has an overall magnetic field and polarisation, but the planet is made up of a lot of materials that also have their own magnetic fields, and we built some of them.
You would have to sense the fields around the area you are in, so be able to rotate the device to repel in the right direction. This would have to happen very rapidly.
Or always stay above the localised sources enough you only have to deal with the fluctuations in the bulk of the planetary field.

I fear even if it were possible, the background level is so low that localised fields and polarities would give you serious problems.
You may repel over 1 area, but become fatally attracted to another.
Ideally you need to be able to exert the same amount of pull or push as you need

I have seen interesting new research happening, so perhaps as we unlock more secrets of the quantum world we will get to reuse magnetism with a whole new tool set.
Thinking small is the new thinking big, and the difference you get when using lots of micro magnets compared to a large powerful single magnet is quite startling.
At small scales magnets can be a lot more effective by huge factors.
I suspect technologically we would need to be at a point where your design is only view-able via a microscope, and there were mass banks generating repulsion and attraction of the subtle magnetic fields around us. Perhaps it would have to be in the coating around the vehicle.

OK I just wandered into the bar-room of thoughts there. In short currently I think you'd need to change the laws of Physics, and even Chief Engineer Scott couldn't do that (so he claimed).
As already noted above, this is perhaps something best suited to space flight.
 
  • #16
35,725
12,313
A magnet in a homogeneous magnetic field does not experience a net force (it can have a torque). It doesn’t matter if you put superconductors, coils or whatever in your setup. You can only get a net thrust from the gradient of the magnetic field - of the order of 1 nT/km near the surface. Let’s use one of the giant magnets from particle detectors and scale it up a bit more: 10 Tesla, 1000 m3. The force on it? 8 millinewton. Enough to lift 0.8 gram - with a magnet of several hundred to thousands of tonnes.
 
  • Like
Likes OmCheeto
  • #17
18
0
A magnet in a homogeneous magnetic field does not experience a net force (it can have a torque). It doesn’t matter if you put superconductors, coils or whatever in your setup. You can only get a net thrust from the gradient of the magnetic field - of the order of 1 nT/km near the surface. Let’s use one of the giant magnets from particle detectors and scale it up a bit more: 10 Tesla, 1000 m3. The force on it? 8 millinewton. Enough to lift 0.8 gram - with a magnet of several hundred to thousands of tonnes.
Thank you.As shown in the figure, the thruster is equipped with a geomagnetic field convergence layer, which is a superconducting material. The geomagnetic field convergence layer repels and blocks the magnetic flux of the geomagnetic field, so that the magnetic flux of the geomagnetic field passes through the narrow area between the upper and lower convergence layers. The geomagnetic field intensity B in the narrow area between the convergent layers of the geomagnetic field is enhanced.The thruster is also equipped with a electrifying coil, and the lower end of the coil is located in a narrow area between the convergent layers.
use the ampere force between the coil and the earth's magnetic field,F=BIL,Will F increase?
index-php-action-dlattach-topic-47298-png-png.png
 

Attachments

  • index-php-action-dlattach-topic-47298-png-png.png
    index-php-action-dlattach-topic-47298-png-png.png
    302.4 KB · Views: 428
Last edited:
  • #18
35,725
12,313
See above: It doesn't matter. You can increase the field strength and reduce the area, but you can't increase the product of both (and only this product matters) because it is given by the overall external field. You are more likely to reduce the product with any additional diamagnetic material (like superconductors as ideal diamagnetic materials).

In your setup the superconductors will experience a strong force downwards if the coil feels a force upwards, the sum is zero in a homogeneous field.
 
  • #19
russ_watters
Mentor
21,088
7,844
For whatever reason, the OP is not responding to what is being said, but is just repeating parts of the first post over and over with small variations. I think the respondents have adequately explained why this won't work, and if translation is the issue (numbers do not require translation...), finding a better translator is up to them. The thread has run its course and is locked.
 
  • Like
Likes Nik_2213 and davenn

Related Threads on Can an aircraft using a geomagnetic field generate lift?

Replies
3
Views
14K
  • Last Post
Replies
10
Views
2K
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • Last Post
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
869
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • Last Post
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
243
Replies
11
Views
1K
Replies
17
Views
547
Top