Are Dreams a Window into the Future? Exploring the Mysteries of Dreaming

[Iacchus32]

one man's prediction, another man's coincidence.

Of course if you believe in cause-and-effect, then nothing happens purely at random and, there's no such thing as an accident. Whether we wish to believe it or otherwise. By the way, if everything was relative, we have to ask relative to what? And certainly -- in the absolute sense -- that answer cannot be nothing. You also may want to consider that the immaterial, thoughts and dreams and whatnot, are a precursor to the material. Even in a simple matter such as deciding to take the dog out for a walk, before actually doing so. Whereas dreams, like the vital organs in the body, are more the precursor or, subsconscious workings of thought, in which case it's likely that they can predict what occurs beforehand.

 

[Deeviant]

Dreams absolutely can predict the future. Predicting the future is very easy. The hard part is correctely predicting the future.

The human mind works in funny ways, it plays tricks on itself quite often. Many times when you think you predicted something it really is a delayed thought resurfacing. Such as you are thinking about something similar to an event that happens to you, then your brain makes a connection between the two and interprets as if you had predicted the event, while in reality it was simply a coincidence. Coincidence is the birthplace of many strange beliefs.

Other times an event happens and it fits all the all the data so well you mind accepts it so quickly that it feels like you knew it was going to happen before it did. How many times have you heard the infamous "I KNEW that was going to happen" when said person had the opportunity to say something BEFORE the event happened yet did not(and their failure to do so had thus led to something bad happening as a result of said event). The same type of situation happens when you are trying to work on a problem that you believe you should know and simply can not get or remember, then somebody tells you the answer and the first reaction you get is "I knew that".

As for the poster that claims to have predicted and actually warned her ex that he was going to break his neck. That certainly is a very interesting case. It is still much short of conclusive. Its funny how people that have the "ability" to predict the future only have this ability sporatically and seems to be completely random in what triggers it or in what events it chooses to predict. Many times it seems like a simply case of the law of averages in which if you make enough predictions, some will eventually come true. Would said poster truly say that have never made a prediction that has not come true? Truly? And if such is so, surely you would use your powers for the good of mankind, predicting terrible events and warning us so we may avoid cases of large-scale loss of life.

Then of course if somebody I loved or once loved told me that I was going to break my neck, that would probably make me a pretty nervous guy even though I'm generally not a very supersitious guy, I'm human like the rest of us. If I then put myself in a position that I could possibly break my neck that nervous energy make come out in the form of panic and adversely effect my ability to deal with a dangerous situation around me and so cause me to actually break my damn neck.

So, there is really is no reason to bring a whole bunch of pseudo science/metaphysical mumbo jumbo into this discussion.


edit: added ending and spell check

 

[Overdose]

This is the problem with the whole thing, if youve not experienced it or don't have a close relative whos experienced it your just not going to buy into it.
We could take all the people who are most gifted in this area and throw them to james rhandi for the benefit of those who need a little more proof. But really it would be pointless, the majority of accurate predictions would be deemed too vauge, and direct hit predictions would be deemed coincidences.
Which was kind of what i was trying to get at earlier, there's no point at which you can say 'oh alright we know this isn't just a coincidence now' there just isnt.
f you really want to believe that seeing the future is impossible then all your going to see is an endless catalouge of extreme coincidences.

 

[vanesch]

But really it would be pointless, the majority of accurate predictions would be deemed too vauge, and direct hit predictions would be deemed coincidences.

This means that you are admitting the non-verifiability of the statement you want to make. Saying that it is "pointless to try to prove, because you won't believe me anyway" can be applied to any wrong or true statement and doesn't add anything to an argument pro or contra.

To the essential discussion here:
first of all, it is of course possible to predict (correctly) some aspects of the future. That's what science is all about: making predictions of the outcomes of experiments. So there is nothing unnatural in making predictions.
If I connect a 12 V battery to a 1 ohm resistor, I predict that I will measure a current of 12 A when I put also an ampmeter in series. Next, I actually DO this, and lo and behold: I read 12 A ! I have predicted the future !

But I guess that's too boring to be the subject of discussion here :grumpy:.
You want mystic stuff to talk about. New Age things. Pyramids and voodoo.
So what you are talking about, which I will call premonitory dreaming, is: being told about future events which, by no means at our current disposition of science, or of past experience, could have given the suspicion that those events would take place.

So in order to demonstrate the existence of such a phenomenon, you'd have to carefully eliminate 1) those that don't count according to that definition, meaning, everything that could lead to a rational prediction of the event and 2) that the cases which remain are statistically relevant.

Let's go back to the lady that had a dream that her husband would die, after he had a few heart attacks. Admittedly, after having had a few heart attacks, you can rationally predict that the chance of dying soon is pretty high. Also, in those cases that a relative dreamt that the person would die, and in the end he didn't die, are not reported usually. So there is statistical biasing here.

On the other hand, if, say, 50 times in a row, you can dream up a number between 2 and 12 and you communicate that publicly, and the next day, I throw dice and it is each time equal to that number, I grant that premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense exists. 1) is satisfied because the throwing of dice is random, and the public communication is sure and 2) is satisfied because of the 50 times in a row. It would convince everybody.

However, if you say of premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense, sometimes it happens, sometimes not, in such a way that it is statistically not tractable, it should convince people that it doesn't exist and is just statistics.

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[Fliption]

So, there is really is no reason to bring a whole bunch of pseudo science/metaphysical mumbo jumbo into this discussion.

Since you are so sure of this then I'd like to hear a response to the story I referenced in this very thread way back on page 2.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=23430&page=2&pp=15

I can't seem to find an explanation that satisfies me. And this will be the first time I haven't been able to do that. So go ahead and take a shot.

As I point out in the story, claiming that I just ignore the dreams that don't actually happen and focus on the ones that do will not work in this case. Coincidence is a common claim and usually is accurate. But sometimes a coincidence is so amazing that it should make a reasonable person, who realizes that we don't know everything there is to know in this crazy universe of ours, wonder about what really is going on.

 

[Deeviant]

Since you are so sure of this then I'd like to hear a response to the story I referenced in this very thread way back on page 2.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=23430&page=2&pp=15
QUOTE]

I read your story, and I did address this kind of stuff in my post.

Dreams by their very nature are vague. Very often ideas and thoughts inside dreams are iconic and much more analogous than conscious thought.

"I had actually forgotten all about this dream."

By your own admission you had forgotten about your dream until the mourning after, then upon hearing your mother say the tree was struck by lightening, you had a sudden moment of recall. This is exactely the type of situation that I outlined in my post. Your dream was so vague, and had enough simaliarity to the events on the mourning after, that you mind automatically and subconsciously connected the two and you intrepreted that connection by feeling as if you dreamed the lightning strike the night before.

 

[vanesch]

Since you are so sure of this then I'd like to hear a response to the story I referenced in this very thread way back on page 2.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=23430&page=2&pp=15

I can't seem to find an explanation that satisfies me. And this will be the first time I haven't been able to do that. So go ahead and take a shot.

A few years ago, my life was much more hectic than it is now, and I used to wake up often "in the middle of a dream". It was always a confused, intense, and often scary experience. My wife often asked me what I dreamed about, and in fact it was only when I tried to explain her that the dream became a "more logical story". So I think I made up unconsciously that story when telling about my dreams, which were simply too bizarre and confused to be able to tell about. Also I noticed that when waking up because of an external event (a sound, or a light flash, or someone touching me...), that this event became an extremely violent experience in my dream.
So honestly, I really couldn't make up anything - or I could make up anything - from the very confused but intense experiences my "wake up dreams" were.
I haven't had that anymore since 3 or 4 years now (in fact since we've settled, and I'm ok in my job and so on...).
Could it be that yours was similar, in that, I don't know, a neighbour made a cracking noise or something simply fell from the table, or whatever, which made a noise that woke you up, you had a vague but intense dream where somehow you saw your dad or so and the noise became some kind of explosion, and it was only when your mother phoned you that you "completed the story of your dream" ?

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[Overdose]

This means that you are admitting the non-verifiability of the statement you want to make. Saying that it is "pointless to try to prove, because you won't believe me anyway" can be applied to any wrong or true statement and doesn't add anything to an argument pro or contra.

I was trying to put across that your pre-formed beliefs are always going to dictate how you interpret the outcome of experiments. And yes that works both ways!
It really comes down to wether or not the idea of some form of pre-determined future is a little far out for you or not.

But I guess that's too boring to be the subject of discussion here .
You want mystic stuff to talk about. New Age things. Pyramids and voodoo.

There's nothing new age about predicting the future, sages and seers have existed for thousands of years and have little to do with the spiritual movement that began in the early part of the last century. I don't really see where pyramids and voodoo come into any of this either, unless you're just trying to illustrate that all these thing amount to the same thing to you (i.e. mystical mumbo-jumbo) which I am guessing they do.

On the other hand, if, say, 50 times in a row, you can dream up a number between 2 and 12 and you communicate that publicly, and the next day, I throw dice and it is each time equal to that number, I grant that premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense exists. 1) is satisfied because the throwing of dice is random, and the public communication is sure and 2) is satisfied because of the 50 times in a row. It would convince everybody.

This is where i disagree and its what I've been banging on about through the whole thread, i assure you that for a lot of people even if somepne accurately predicted the roll of a dice 100 times in a row. There would still be a great number of people calling it just 'an astronomical coinidence', or probably more likely they would try to infer that there had been some cheating and foul play at work. I've seen this happen time and time again in experiments of this nature.

However, if you say of premonitory dreaming in the voodoo sense, sometimes it happens, sometimes not, in such a way that it is statistically not tractable, it should convince people that it doesn't exist and is just statistics.

And that would put you firmly in the latter camp of 'its all coinidences'.

 

[Fliption]

By your own admission you had forgotten about your dream until the mourning after, then upon hearing your mother say the tree was struck by lightening, you had a sudden moment of recall. This is exactely the type of situation that I outlined in my post. Your dream was so vague, and had enough simaliarity to the events on the mourning after, that you mind automatically and subconsciously connected the two and you intrepreted that connection by feeling as if you dreamed the lightning strike the night before.

Good catch but I'm afraid you have misunderatood my words. When I say that I "forgot" about the dream, I don't mean what you are thinking. Yes I forget dreams all the time and then when something happens similarly I have a vague remembrance of my dream. I know what you're saying. That's not what this was. When I say forgotten here, I only meant that I didn't dwell on it consciously throughout the day. This point isn't really relevant to the story but I mention it because I didn't want anyone to suggest that I was dwelling on the dream throughout the day and then somehow started asking my mother questions about her trees and guiding her answers to fit. So what I meant was not that I forgot about it but that I did not consciously dwell on it during the day prior to the call with my mother and therefore plan on querying her about it. I just didn't want anyone to think I was even thinking something like this might happen. Because it didn't even enter my mind as the day went on, which is why I was shocked when she said what she did.

So I agree with everything you've said because I have said the same thing myself about other instances in my life. But this is not the same thing. I just used the wrong word trying to emphasize that I wasn't consciously thinking throughout the day that I might have dreamt of something that actually happened. The thought never entered my mind, except for right after the dream itself.

BTW, I'm not sure you had the timing right. I had the dream in the morning and talked with my mother later the same day.

 

[Fliption]

Could it be that yours was similar, in that, I don't know, a neighbour made a cracking noise or something simply fell from the table, or whatever, which made a noise that woke you up, you had a vague but intense dream where somehow you saw your dad or so and the noise became some kind of explosion, and it was only when your mother phoned you that you "completed the story of your dream" ?

Another very good try. You're saying the same things I would say to someone who was telling me this story. Heh I guess I deserve this in a way . It's actually quite funny. I have drilled so many people who told me stories like this and then something really does happen to me that I cannot explain.

So to answer your questions, yeah I think it is possible that something external made a noise and woke me up. There is no way I could say that didn't happen. I can say it is highly unlikely given the scene. But I know what you're referring to. I've had the sound of the motorcycle I was driving in my dream suddenly become the sound of my alarm clock. LOl

But I'm not sure this changes the incredulous nature of this event whether I was awaken by something externally or not. Because as soon as I woke up, I consciously thought "Wow that was a weird experience. Makes me wonder if I actually heard my parent's tree fall. And why in the world would it fall before the lighning hit it?" The story was complete that very morning. I did not need to fill in any blanks while I was on the phone with her.

AS I said in that story, I don't believe supernatural exists. But this event has done a lot to convince me that nature is a very complex thing and there is much we don't understand.

 

[Deeviant]

Good catch but I'm afraid you have misunderatood my words. When I say that I "forgot" about the dream, I don't mean what you are thinking. Yes I forget dreams all the time and then when something happens similarly I have a vague remembrance of my dream. I know what you're saying. That's not what this was. When I say forgotten here, I only meant that I didn't dwell on it consciously throughout the day. This point isn't really relevant to the story but I mention it because I didn't want anyone to suggest that I was dwelling on the dream throughout the day and then somehow started asking my mother questions about her trees and guiding her answers to fit. So what I meant was not that I forgot about it but that I did not consciously dwell on it during the day prior to the call with my mother and therefore plan on querying her about it. I just didn't want anyone to think I was even thinking something like this might happen. Because it didn't even enter my mind as the day went on, which is why I was shocked when she said what she did.

So I agree with everything you've said because I have said the same thing myself about other instances in my life. But this is not the same thing. I just used the wrong word trying to emphasize that I wasn't consciously thinking throughout the day that I might have dreamt of something that actually happened. The thought never entered my mind, except for right after the dream itself.

BTW, I'm not sure you had the timing right. I had the dream in the morning and talked with my mother later the same day.

Well there is obviously no convincing you! So I'll leave this thread with this: You'd think, with over 6 trillion people in this world, if precognosce for the future was a possible human trait, at least one person would have the ability to control their ability. Then again, if precognosce for the future was NOT a possible human trait, then you'd expect anybody claiming to have predicited the future to NOT have the ability to control their ability, for it to be a totally random, and for them to use the concept of "faith" a lot when defending their claim. Humans have always been dreamers, always wanting things they can't have, always unwilling to let go of those dreams because they give confort and sometimes a feeling of significance in this otherwise scary and seemingly random world.

 

[Fliption]

Well there is obviously no convincing you!

Well this isn't true in principle but it may very well be true in practice, as I'm disovering. The reason I posted this incident was because I wanted others to point to something that I might have missed. No one has done that. People have mentioned very good suggestions and every single time in my past they would have explained everything. I suspect that they still explain most things that we hear about in this very thread. But I can honestly say that none of that satisfactorily explains what happened to me. So perhaps I cannot be convinced by these explanations because I shouldn't be. Because they are wrong.

So I'll leave this thread with this: You'd think, with over 6 trillion people in this world, if precognosce for the future was a possible human trait, at least one person would have the ability to control their ability. Then again, if precognosce for the future was NOT a possible human trait, then you'd expect anybody claiming to have predicited the future to NOT have the ability to control their ability, for it to be a totally random, and for them to use the concept of "faith" a lot when defending their claim. Humans have always been dreamers, always wanting things they can't have, always unwilling to let go of those dreams because they give confort and sometimes a feeling of significance in this otherwise scary and seemingly random world.

Yeah you would think. I think this is true for the most part. But again, it doesn't sync up with my event. I have no faith, no desire and until this event, have absolutely been almost harsh to people who told me such things. I've always been amazed at how quickly people are to grasp onto something that is clearly considered impossible and I have been almost militant trying to get them to consider the alternatives that are so obvious to me. I will continue to do this by the way. Only I wll probably be a little more patient now.

As to the 6 trillion people remarks... since it is logical to think that lower life forms are conscious in some way and that consciousness has likely evolved to get where it is in humans, doesn't it make sense that it could continue to evolve? Perhaps what you're seeing are the few slight mutations that allow this type of thing every once in a while. But no one has evolved to the point to control such a thing. This is pure speculation of course. But I am open to more ideas than I used to be. Since the nature of consciousness is a huge debate right now and its reductive explanation eludes us at the moment, there is no scientific reason to suggest these things could not happen.

Also, in my situation I didn't see anything in the future. I think that's saying things about physics that is even more of a stretch than what has already been suggested. My dream happened in the morning and the actually tree falling happened the previous night. So I actually dreamed it after it happened. This doesn't require any sort of weird time distortion ideas. It only suggest that somehow my mental content was influenced somehow by some other event that occurred in nature. It sounds kooky to me. And I will question it until either someone proves this stuff or the day I die. But I can't reasonably not consider it anymore.

 

[Wolf]

get this

Most times i cannot recall what i dreamt about the night before but then at some time in the future , weather it be the next day or months later something will happen and i'll have a felling of deja view then i'll recall that what i am seing at the moment is something i dreamt about at some point in the past.

Now once and a while that's ok but i have had this happening to me for the past year it happens a LOT i'll say to myself quite often i "dreamt this before"
it's weird really.

Here is the newest example.
The other day i made plans with some friends to go to the busceres (a festival we have in halifax) and in my dream that night we went to the buscers and we went to a stage near the harbor.When we got to the stage i looked over and i saw someone from my past who i miss greatly and i became overwhelmed with sadness.

The next day when we actually went to the busceres i had in fact remembered my dream and that i had saw my friend david at the busceres(the problem their being is david is dead) and we in fact did go to the same stage as my dream.
At the stage i was looked around sort of creped out because of the dream and while looking i saw an ex girlfriend of mine.
In my dream i had saw david and i became sad but the ex i had seen is a girl that i have missed greatly since we broke up and i was overwelmed by sadness.
Although the person was not the same the feelings were almost identical
i still wish i could be with david(may he rest in eternal peace) as a friend and with her has a intimitly but hey life goes on.

There was one other thing that happened that day but was different, a show was about to start with a magician and before he started i said to myself that it would be cool to see a magician do the entire act in silence and that is exactly what the magician did, sort of creepy.

The thing about these dreams that i have is i do not know what will happen in the "future" until it happens and then the question i ask myself is should i take the dreams as a warning to not do what i did in the dream or is it the opposite and i should follow the actions here is the other cacth in almost all my dreams i can control my actions in the dream so do my actions in the dreams preset what will happen in reality? just a thought i don't really believe it but it will be interesting to talk about

 

[Impossible?]

Dreams are amazing, I've shouted and screamed in my sleep, and had whole conversations. once i was dreaming about a particular outfit, and woke up on the morning to find it neatly laid out at the end of my bed. I am very conscious when I am asleep, and my dad has sleep problems too- hereditary?