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Can the insurgency be crushed?

  1. Dec 9, 2004 #1
    With the toppling of Fallujah, The army is saying that it can be crushed, but it seems to me that things just keep escalating. I dont know, is it that we dont have enough troops within Iraq to lock the country down? One of the principals we saw working was that when the vacuum was created when many forces moved towards fallujah and away from the smaller towns, the insurgency bit at our heels immediately. Does this mean that future actions towards progress will be held back by the insurgency keeping us at our posts?

    Secondly, and maybe another point entirely, is that the insurgency seems to be reaming the new Iraqi police and military. Ofcourse many dont care for a body count of their forces lost, but it seems like every day a police station is attacked effectively. You always hear more stories about the insurgents actually killing the police as opposed to a whimpy mortar attack that is mostly for show.
     
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  3. Dec 9, 2004 #2

    plover

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    Report by Tom Lasseter of Knight-Ridder
     
  4. Dec 9, 2004 #3
    As person who knows well about Iraq, I can say the problem of American is the understanding of Iraqi society.

    In this society if you kill one person or mistreat other, then all his cousins or his town should revenge, it is called ''sharaf or Karamah'' in Arabic .. which something close to ''honor'' . Unfortunately, the American do not have suitable advisers to tell them about the situation. They keep hearing the propaganda machine and ignoring the facts on ground.

    People of ME do not live ‘’individuals ‘’, they live as small communities, and if one of these communities suffered, the others should not hesitate to help even if they lose their lives.

    American came to Iraq thinking ‘’that evil Arab’’ understand only force, so kill more Arab to get more peace!!

    Unfortunately they are completely mistaken, and it is too late to correct the situation.The image of American solider in ME is link with (murdering civilians, bombing houses, raping, Sodomising …..)

    Most of Iraqi police are rejected by society. People see them as tortures because they joined the occupation army. Such feelings are the same for all nations under occupation. You can not tolerate with Iraqi solider who fight with ‘’occupation’’ against his nation.

    Freedom, war on terrorism, democracy, liberations….. is great principles t used by American, as all occupation armies through history did , to give moral background for their occupation.

    It is difficult to tell people I come to occupy your country because I want you to accept my will and to work for my own interest. Through history, all invaders used to say we invaded others to liberate them or to modernize them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2004
  5. Dec 9, 2004 #4

    russ_watters

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    The US is the first country in history to actually mean it when we said it: in WWII.
     
  6. Dec 9, 2004 #5

    russ_watters

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    To some extent its like trying to put out an oil fire with water: you just splash the still-burning oil around.
    This is of much larger concern than insurgents attacking American forces: if they were just attacking us, we could fix the problem by leaving. But clearly, this isn't just about killing Americans, its about preventing democracy.

    The only solution I can see is martial law until the country can be rebuilt and government established. Prosperity tends to lessen hatred.
     
  7. Dec 9, 2004 #6
    So you don't believe the Americans are trying to help Iraq and that the Iraqi police and army are just puppets of America?

    What if elections are held in January, what would your opinion of the new government be? Would you and others you know just automatically think they're also American puppets and can't be trusted, or will you have faith in them because they were voted in by the Iraqi people (assuming they are elected fairly)?
     
  8. Dec 9, 2004 #7

    kat

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    Hmm Bilal...since the "insurgents" some even from Palestine (are you proud of them or?) are attacking civilians and not just Iraqi Police and army..the families of those murdered by the "insurgents" are going to want revenge against who? and support who?
     
  9. Dec 15, 2004 #8
    of course it can be crushed- but since killing them only breeds more as a result of the memetic reaction- you would need to exterminate the majority of the earth's populaton ANTZ style- bassicaly you would have to kill everyone who thought that killing billions was wrong-

    if you had a good self-maintaining technological infrastructure you could just kill all but the few millions that you could tolerate and leave perhaps another billion for slaves

    technology might allow you to avoid killing alltogether- if you could engineer a neural virus [prion nanotechnology? ]which turns it's victims into easily brainwashed/re-programmed meat-puppets- this has been a dream of the CIA for decades-
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2004
  10. Dec 25, 2004 #9
    Unfortunately, USA lost the war since Abu Gharib!! , you can not liberate people by violating their basic rights.
    It is war of choice … USA started it against the will of most of the people in the world. It is similar to the German invasion of Poland in 2WW.

    2WW is completely different story ... otherwise why USA do not invade the other 90 countries in the world who suffer under dictatorship? What about N. Korea?

     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2004
  11. Dec 25, 2004 #10
    Election will not provide magic solution!! Germany had election in 1933, and we know what the results!!

    I hope to see Iraq peaceful country after all these wars, but hopes are far from reality. The situation in Iraq is very bad …. May be we should wait many years to hear that Iraq is stable again (if Iraq still exists on the map in that time!!) …..

    We should face the reality instead of fooling ourselves … media just showing you what you like to hear …. But the real winner of occupation of Iraq is OBL and his supporters..!!

     
  12. Dec 25, 2004 #11
    The world is not only white and black!! Or If you are not with me, then you are against me!!

    In Falluja , American sources admitted that only 25 non Iraqi fighters exist among 2500 fighters ...

    I do not support bombing civilians, kidnapping workers and journalist, bombing mosques and churches ... of course I do not support also the American occupation and murdering of 100000 civilians /destruction of the country in the name of ''liberation''!! I do not support the barbarism in Abu Gharib and the complete destruction of Falluja !!

    UN with help of Europe and ME should control Iraq till it become stable country. USA/UK has nothing to do in Iraq; they started this war to remove MDW, which they did not find them. Therefore they should withdraw after paying compensation to Iraqi people.


     
  13. Dec 25, 2004 #12
    "Election will not provide magic solution!! Germany had election in 1933, and we know what the results!!"

    Bilal, that's a classic point, there are people here proclaiming that the elections will bring about a new dawn of hope, as if right after the elections are held, all the Iraqis will rush to the American troops and throw flowers over them.. If the elections are held, they will only be nominal, not legitimate, US wants to hold elections for the sake of saying that elections have been held and iraq is now a democracy, but even if the elections are held, it will not be the voice of the whole people, maybe a few cities will participate, but again only the Shiites will control the new gov., the Sunnis will be ignored...
     
  14. Dec 25, 2004 #13

    Hurkyl

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    Did you support Saddam?


    What leads you to believe that group would fare any better?
     
  15. Dec 25, 2004 #14
    I really don't think that many Iraqis, except for those who can personally gain some hard cash or power from this occupation( invasion ), have a tiny bit of respect for the troops or the US administration anymore, when they have seen the lies and despicable actions of these aggressors in every day life, how can they respect them? How can they follow a country that has humiliated them...

    now, i do feel that the iraqis want a democracy, every human being yearns for that freedom, but they don't want to get it through somebody who has degraded them in the name of "liberation."

    Maybe someone with more respect, who doesn't say that there are WMDs in their country and doesn't waffle on the reasons, would be well recieved in Iraq... Like bilal says maybe Europe is the right continent do it, who knows, maybe Asia is..

    P.S - I really don't want to place the blame on the Anglo-American troops that much, they are just following orders...

    I am not supporting the insurgency either, as you can see from the second paragraph...

    edit: oh god, i am waiting for the backlash from the Bush supporters and the people with "support the troops" signs here, i can almost sense it coming soon... :frown: but i will get through it by any means necessary.. (just reading up on M X Shabazz, so i had to slip that phrase in) :smile:

    ----------------------------------------
    When the Europeans came, they had the Bible and we had the land. They said that this is the book of God and asked us to meditate. When we opened our eyes they had the land and we had the Bible.

    - Jomo Kenyatta
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2004
  16. Dec 25, 2004 #15

    Hurkyl

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    Looking back, I realize Bilal didn't even suggest that UN+Europe+ME was more capable, just that the USA/UK didn't have any business doing it. Sorry I misread you.
     
  17. Dec 25, 2004 #16
    -I hate Saddam more than any other human on the earth. I never respect any bloody dictator.. I hate Saddam since his war with Iran, since his crimes against his people, unlike Ramsfield who used to have 'warm' relations with him in 80s! Saddam supported Palestine, but I never welcome his support. I take my decision based on "human principles " not based on my own interests.

    - Europe (except British government) has a lot of respect in ME. It is wise and old Continent and it is the origin of new civilization .... Just check how people in Algeria, Egypt and Palestine wave with French flags .... May be the sympathy and support of French journalists in Iraq from all the Islamic /Arab organization is another proof. Even Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbullah .. asked to release the French journalists...

    - The other ME countries has strong relations with Iraqi people: Iran can control the Shia , Syria can control the Sunni and Christian, can control the Turkmen .. so most of Iraqi people will be under control of the neighbors ..

    Simply, Iraq should be divided temporary among these countries (Turkey, Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia) based on cultural/historical and religious relations for several years. Europe can help in establishing Federal democratic system based on Iraqi culture … this system should respect the rights of every individual in Iraq.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2004
  18. Dec 25, 2004 #17

    plover

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    Bilal:

    What do Sunni think of Ayatollah Sistani? Do they respect or trust him? Or do Sunni mostly think of Shi'i leaders as heretics?

    Do Iraqi Sunni think of Sistani differently than Sunni outside Iraq?
     
  19. Dec 25, 2004 #18
    Hi plover,

    In fact what called shia / Sunni is new issue in Iraq. This country was the most secular in ME. People rarely care about religions or sectors. In, mid 90s, Saddam encouraged them to be religious, also the environment of war force people to return to the god.

    Ayatollah Sistani is not Iraqi, he is Iranian. This is could be enough reason that many Iraqi (Sunni, Shia and others) can not trust him. (He care about Iran more than Iraq).

    The Iraqi Shia leaders who were fighting Saddam are (Sadr family). Muqtada Sadr is looks like ‘’child’’ but because of the history of his family, he got a lot of respect among Shia and Sunni.

    Mohammed Sadr and his sister Zaynab (Uncle and aunt of Muqtada Sadr) were arrested both in 1981. Saddam cut Zainab into pieces and burned her brother by acid.. till his bones disappeared.

    Frankly, most of those new leaders of Iraq including Kurds leaders had shameful history; Allawi , Shaalan (defense Minister) , Chalabi …were former Baathists who murdered many innocent Iraqi people in 80s. Kurds leaders shake their hands with Saddam several times and accepted to be his alliance. Ayatollah Sistani did not do anything against Saddam; he showed his support because he wants to survive …

    Failure of USA to find trusted and respectful alliance among the Iraqi people is one of main reasons that Iraqi resistance got more strength.


     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2004
  20. Dec 25, 2004 #19

    Hurkyl

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    Okay, so you hate Saddam, and you don't support the American invasion -- fine. It's still important to ask yourself which one you prefer.

    Here's a philosophical question to ask yourself: is it better to support the lesser of two evils, or to allow the greater to perpetuate?

    I would expect that most people who supported the invasion merely found it to be a better alternative, rather than a desirable state of affairs.



    What about, say, Côte d'Ivoire? Most of what I read about modern African history suggests an intense hatred of Eurpoeans.

    But anyways, you're speaking about (your perception of) popular opinion, but I had asked what makes you think Eurpoeans and the U.N. are more capable of mounting an effective occupation, and more capable of building a new nation?

    And, frankly, as far as I can tell, only a small percentage of the current violence in Iraq is against the Americans, and only a small percentage of that would change if you replaced the Americans with some other western power.



    Addendum: I focus on these two particular issues, rather than others, mainly because in my eyes they appear to be heavily influenced by propaganda and public opinion rather than substance, a particular pet peeve of mine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2004
  21. Dec 26, 2004 #20
    Dear Hurkyl,

    Okay, so you hate Saddam, and you don't support the American invasion -- fine. It's still important to ask yourself which one you prefer.

    Here's a philosophical question to ask yourself: is it better to support the lesser of two evils, or to allow the greater to perpetuate?

    I would expect that most people who supported the invasion merely found it to be a better alternative, rather than a desirable state of affairs.

    To compare who more evil USA or Saddam, we should wait till the end of American occupation to count who murdered and destroyed more …


    - Do we know what really USA planning for? If USA just wants to establish democratic State in Iraq and withdraw within short time, I do believe that nobody will opposite them!! The problem that we can not trust USA government. The speech of Bush about Freedom, liberation, is the same speech of French-English Imperialist before just 50 years. USA is not charitable organization to waste hundreds billions of Dollars and thousands of soldiers for the ‘’interest of Iraqi people’’. To know why people can not trust the invaders, just check the modern history of ME and compare it till now. I wish you know the story of Palestine and how the British occupation army broke its promises and gave our country to the European Jews?
    - Why USA did not let the UN to be responsible about Iraq?
    - Why USA did not create democratic government in Kuwait (liberated by USA in 1990)?
    - Why USA allows Israel to 90 UN resolutions and let them to get nuke?
    - Why the war in Iraq is got ‘’religious and racist cover’’ … (e.g. Crusade, Christian activities in Iraq, anti Islam and anti Arab propaganda in USA…)
    - Why USA using the same tactics of Israel in Iraq?
    - Why only Zionists/extremists Christian is enthusiastic for this war? Is it accidentally that the people who planned this war are extremists Zionist who hate Arab and Islam? (E.g. Wolf, Fieth , Perele?)
    - If American are liberators, why the last pictures of tutoring the Iraqi prisoners dated: May 2003, which means the American soldiers came to punish the Iraqi and they did not do their crimes as reply on Iraqi resistance ….


    What about, say, Côte d'Ivoire? Most of what I read about modern African history suggests an intense hatred of Eurpoeans.?

    Europe has not peaceful history in the third world countries … but the situation changed after 2WW. At least they learned from their history….


    But anyways, you're speaking about (your perception of) popular opinion, but I had asked what makes you think Eurpoeans and the U.N. are more capable of mounting an effective occupation, and more capable of building a new nation?


    Because people trust UN and Europe more than USA and UK. The problem is not with removing of Saddam, but with the hidden agenda of the neoconservatives (who are full by hate and racism against our nations). If the Palestinian resisted the British occupation in 20s, they could live in peace in their homeland now!! Unfortunately, they believed the British and they let them to stay several years till they created Israel and caused permanent conflict for generations … simply , the Iraqi do not want to repeat the Palestinian mistake.

    And, frankly, as far as I can tell, only a small percentage of the current violence in Iraq is against the Americans, and only a small percentage of that would change if you replaced the Americans with some other western power.

    I did not say to replace American occupation by western occupation!! Just I want UN to arrange everything without USA and UK : Arab and Muslims countries should send armies to replace the Anglo American forces, then Europe should provide experts to establish new democratic Iraq …..
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2004
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