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Cattle Mutilations

  1. Aug 20, 2010 #1

    Ivan Seeking

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    Tonight on Fact or Faked,
    http://www.syfy.com/factorfaked/

    The team investigated the now infamous case of cattle mutilations. For those not familiar with this claim [in the US], it has been around since the 1960s.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_mutilation

    One key idea was tested that can apparently account for the alleged "surgical" incisions found: Bloating causes the skin to rip leaving a very surgical-like cut. This was tested using an air bladder and a piece of cow hide. The results were very convincing.

    This is the first realistic explanation for the "surgical" cuts that I have ever seen. For a long time this really had people baffled. I don't know if the entirety of the mutilations can be explained yet, but this is highly significant in explaining the physical evidence.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2017
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  3. Aug 20, 2010 #2

    Chronos

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    You need a largely unscavenged corpse, which explains why these incidents seem odd. This is unlikely save in barren, arid or semi-arid locations.
     
  4. Aug 20, 2010 #3

    Ivan Seeking

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    The problem there is that scavengers are the only reasonable explanation for the missing organs. And generally they would make a mess.
     
  5. Aug 20, 2010 #4
    I always just assumed it was a hoax played by people over the years, a sort of unspoken thing kind of like crop circles.
     
  6. Aug 21, 2010 #5

    Ivan Seeking

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    Not likely. Not only would it be a serious crime, but after over 40 years, no one can explain how it is done.
     
  7. Aug 24, 2010 #6
    Given the efficiency of scavengers such as buzzards, I wouldn't expect to find even a scrap of organ. Muscle tissue and such would leave a mess, but organs are soft and so nutritionally rich that they're often scavenged within hours or even minutes, leaving no remnant.
     
  8. Aug 24, 2010 #7
    Watched the same show, and while this may explain the cuts in areas where there are organs underneath to bloat, it does not explain the same surgical like cuts on other areas of the body, such as the head/face, ribcage and limbs, where there are no underlying organs.

    Overall I do enjoy the show as they are among the few attempting to experiment and reproduce the results observed.
     
  9. Aug 24, 2010 #8
    Gasses from bloating can, and do, move to the head, and limbs. In a way, this is similar to the method of injecting air under duck's subcutaneous layer to make Peking Duck. This is also an unfortunate means for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_gangrene
     
  10. Aug 24, 2010 #9
    True, but once the skin was torn to allow escape, the tear would not continue in the same fashion without the organ present continuing its bloating. The subcutaneous skin layers are probably insufficient to cause the same effect. The bloating explanation would also leave the skin intact, but as a "flap" still being attached to the body, unless it was consumed by scavengers. It also would not explain the signs of cauterizing of the flesh around the cuts supposedly reported.

    Just my thoughts on it all. I do agree it is the first credible explanation for the smooth cuts.
     
  11. Aug 24, 2010 #10
    Coyotes do consume large amounts of carrion, although they prefer fresh meet. They're territorial, but their territory range is fairly large. As a result, they might eat from cattle which have died, while only eating part of it and leaving the rest for days.
     
  12. Aug 24, 2010 #11

    Ivan Seeking

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    I understand the body parts disappearing, but what about the blood? One key marker for this is that no blood or blood stains are ever found and there no blood left in the body.

    Something else that the "fact of faked" people missed: Not only do the rips appear to be clean cuts, but they also seem to have what has been decscribed as a cookie cutter marks - smooth cuts with evenly spaced extrusions or bumps along the cut. I noticed this in the tears made with the air bladder. This has long been claimed as a distinctive marker of cattle mutilations.
     
  13. Aug 24, 2010 #12
    I have to admit, the absence of blood is explicable, but requires very specific conditions. The blood would need to clot and gather in organs (such as the lungs and liver) AND then be consumed. It would be unusual for carrion to be given such a long period to decay and... well... "cure" before the onset of scavenging.

    Insanity: You have a point, but you'd be surprised how gas can move to one region and be trapped in what amounts to a compartment. I'm not saying that this IS what happened, but it remains a possibility.

    Personally, I buy the hoax theory above all others, but it's just a theory and it remains unproven. I could ask why cattle would be of particular interest, but that would require insight into a sentient cause, and I don't even understand why people would do it.
     
  14. Aug 24, 2010 #13
    I did the cross country trip with the family a few years ago. We camped in the wide open spaces of federal land. ( a true paranormal occurance in the NorthEast since there are no wide open tracts of unclaimed federal land to camp on.. okay maybe a few, but not like in the West. ).

    Cattle grazing rights on national forests are a big deal. There are cattle gates everywhere and herds in the middle of nowhere. They are not exactly in the backyard under human eyes. You could do anything to the cattle and odds are it would have days or weeks until someone discovered it.

    Given the the climate in the west, the endless prey and diseases that could occur, and someone intentionally trying to get rancher A off the federal land, so that rancher B can get the cheap grazing rights. There are plenty of logical paths to follow before throwing up your hands and blaming E.T. This hardly rises to the level of the unexplained, and I think the energy is best spent trying to figure out how Santa can fit all those gifts in his sleigh, and how do those reindeer fly anyway?
     
  15. Aug 24, 2010 #14

    Ivan Seeking

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    Who said anything about ET, besides you?

    If you were a cattle rancher, you would see the value in this. As you said, it could be the result of a crime.
     
  16. Aug 24, 2010 #15
    I was speaking of the theories listed in the article on wiki and not in response to a posting. sorry if it came off that way.

    My point is that it could be anything, and a combination of several things. A hoax mixed with natural preditors is probably closer to reality. Most of the areas we camped at were located near a tiny little village which thrived on tourism, and an incident like this would pay some bills for the village.

    I think it is a mistake for those who look at things like this to lump them all together. All it takes for the press to pay attention to any event or person for someone else to decide they would not mind the same attention from the press.
     
  17. Aug 24, 2010 #16
    No kidding, and even if the deaths don't represent a significant fiscal loss, the strange nature of the kills or deaths are probably emotionally disturbing. It could be that this began with a psychopath "playing" with a given ritual, and it was then copies as a hoax. Really, there are many plausible causes once the human element is introduced... only the natural causes are mysterious.
     
  18. Aug 25, 2010 #17

    alt

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    Gotta say, I fully agree with your 2nd and 3rd paragraph !
     
  19. Aug 26, 2010 #18

    Ivan Seeking

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    Ah. Note that you won't find any such discussions here.

    To me, the hoax explanation is the least likely of all potential prosaic explanations. Most of these cases never even make the news. Keep in mind that this has been going on for over 40 years, and often in some of the most remote places in the US. The only crack in the lining there is the possibility of insurance fraud, but I don't think the motivation for fraud exists to any significant degree. If an entire herd was lost, that would be one thing, but one cow here, and one there, doesn't seem to make sense. And it would be just as easy to claim it was predators; assuming you can even get this sort of insurance.
     
  20. Aug 26, 2010 #19

    alt

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    The hoax is the least likely ?

    What in you view is the most likely ?
     
  21. Aug 26, 2010 #20
    It could just be some med students having a laugh and preparing for exams ;-)
     
  22. Aug 26, 2010 #21
    I followed up on a few of those links, and actually the early cases were highly publicised. One of the early major cases occured on a farm owned by a senator. And these incidents were picked up by the paranormal world very quickly. I was young and I remember all of the wierd occult stuff that followed the manson trials, and lest I forget the wonderful film "Chariot of the Gods" ( I actually saw this in the theatre" ).

    The material back then is still some of the same material they show today on the scyfi channel. It seems like the paranormal stuff just aggregates into pyramid of nonsense over the years. ( they still show that bigfoot footage, even after it was an admitted hoax ).

    Do not discount the fact that the outlets for material like this was very different years ago. It was not lost in an 1 of 200+ cable channels, it was shown on network television. Heck I had 4 - 5 channels growing up, depending on the weather and cloud coverage. Every sunday we watch "In search of" and saw all of this nonsense..

    Just do not underestimate the staying power of a good hoax. Nor the determination of people to be idiots.
     
  23. Aug 26, 2010 #22

    Ivan Seeking

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    First of all, the fact that it got press in the 1970s does not explain why anyone would be interested in hoaxes today. If it is a hoax, then explain how it is done. If it was easy to explain, it wouldn't be a mystery.

    Also note that the alleged admission of a bigfoot hoax came from the family of Patterson, not him - he is dead. They also happened to be cutting a book deal. So which is the lie? No one has ever been able to duplicate the film using the alleged monkey suit. Any true skeptic would demand evidence and not just fold when they hear what they want to hear.

    Anecdotes are not more credible just because one might like the claim.
     
  24. Sep 3, 2010 #23
    Rain?

    Perhaps a throwaway from a meat market? Could have been used for target practice then left to rot/bake. Might have been a winter kill that's unearthed in the spring melt.

    As airborne said, lots of possibilities. Given the state of forensic science these days, if there were any serious nature to various claims, we'd see some serious forensic evidence. All we have, though, are a lot of wild conjecture about what it could be, and little to know concrete discussions from reputable forensic scientists about what it either is or is not.
     
  25. Sep 3, 2010 #24
    If anthropogenic, what conceivable benefit could there be?
     
  26. Sep 3, 2010 #25
    What's up with the EM?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FeHqrkCeds



    BTW, the wiki has a link to a human mutilation with pictures. And those pictures are a nightmare. Avoid if even slightly squeamish.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
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